Decline of Detroit's neighborhoods seen through Google Street a View

AerchAngel said:
unions do not provide a premium job, they do it at the lowest specs they can. THEY ARE UNION for a reason. You can't fire them for a lackadaisical job. They cut corners at every opportune time. I know, my neighbor was in the IBEW or something like that union and got out and the stories he told me would make your skin crawl. He said they do the BARE minimum. Secure contract and they could do whatever they want just enough to pass city/county and state tests usually structural integrity/electrical and plumbing. Independents can't do that, they have to go above and beyond the call or they won't get renewed business. When you have so many workers shifting in and out, it's dangerous.
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Hate to call you on this but it's total BS. You don't have to deal with a union if you don't want do. BUT they are a collection of skilled labor. Sure you have bad unions and bad union workers, but you're just feeding into lies that have been shelled out by big corporations since the 70s.
 
zitothebrave said:
Hate to call you on this but it's total BS. You don't have to deal with a union if you don't want do. BUT they are a collection of skilled labor. Sure you have bad unions and bad union workers, but you're just feeding into lies that have been shelled out by big corporations since the 70s.
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huh? My neighbor was in one, my company had them and got rid of them because of their substandards. They fed you a bunch of crap if you believe they are premium workers.

I am no schill for big corporations, I don't like them either but when you asked for more money but not willing to put the effort to earn it and stonewall at every opportunity and just skate by because you feel that you deserve some of that, I don't know what to tell you. We have sh!tty teachers because of union, not very good automobiles because of unions, shoddy structural work done by unions, the list goes on and on and on but yet they bitch when jobs are gone. That is what they are good at, bitching. I am shocked that you stand by them.
 
As I said it's not for every job and every company.

You may think you're a schill for big corporations but everyone has been sold the same lies as you, you've chosen to digest it instead of sort through the data.
 
AerchAngel said:
huh? My neighbor was in one, my company had them and got rid of them because of their substandards. They fed you a bunch of crap if you believe they are premium workers.

I am no schill for big corporations, I don't like them either but when you asked for more money but not willing to put the effort to earn it and stonewall at every opportunity and just skate by because you feel that you deserve some of that, I don't know what to tell you. We have sh!tty teachers because of union, not very good automobiles because of unions, shoddy structural work done by unions, the list goes on and on and on but yet they bitch when jobs are gone. That is what they are good at, bitching. I am shocked that you stand by them.
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Your points about unions are just the same regurgitated right vs. left argument that's been going on for years. You're smarter than that AA. Think for yourself man and don't base an entire workforce off of some guy you know or some story you were told. Do unions have a higher percentage of ****ty workers than non union places? I'm sure they do but the percentage difference isn't exponential the way you make it seem. It's certainly not high enough to send companies packing to China. I'm a union worker and out of my shop, there's one guy that doesn't belong here and the other 7 of us take pride in our work. In fact we are underpaid by about 35% compared to other local companies. You are taking the worst case scenarios and treating them as if they're the norm. It's just propaganda fed to you from a bunch of rich guys who get richer if unions didn't exist. They trick you into thinking that unions, not their greed, is what killed off a ton of the jobs in America.
 
zitothebrave said:
As I said it's not for every job and every company.

You may think you're a schill for big corporations but everyone has been sold the same lies as you, you've chosen to digest it instead of sort through the data.
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umm, this information did not come from the big corporations, it came from my neighbor and the people I work with. I could care less what corporations said, you proclaiming that they do no wrong and do premium work was a farce.

You do know union uses the novices/noobs for most jobs, the ones that just got out of trade schools because that is all they can hire, which I didn't know until a few days ago, that is why I say they have 15 to 20 people on a house job that usually take less than half a dozen people. Interesting we had a big discussion on this a few days ago on another board and that is why I chimed in. People like you do not think they stuff don't stink. They are just as or moreso pulling your chain than me listening to any anti-union speak. You have to remember, I hate corporations because they are stingy. I do not like unions because they abuse their power and we are at their mercy if you have them under your roof. They can stink to high heaven knowing there is not a damn thing we can do about it but eliminate their position.
 
ESP47 said:
Your points about unions are just the same regurgitated right vs. left argument that's been going on for years. You're smarter than that AA. Think for yourself man and don't base an entire workforce off of some guy you know or some story you were told. Do unions have a higher percentage of ****ty workers than non union places? I'm sure they do but the percentage difference isn't exponential the way you make it seem. It's certainly not high enough to send companies packing to China. I'm a union worker and out of my shop, there's one guy that doesn't belong here and the other 7 of us take pride in our work. In fact we are underpaid by about 35% compared to other local companies. You are taking the worst case scenarios and treating them as if they're the norm. It's just propaganda fed to you from a bunch of rich guys who get richer if unions didn't exist. They trick you into thinking that unions, not their greed, is what killed off a ton of the jobs in America.
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No one fed me anything. Unions are a dying breed and there is nothing you or I can do about it. Maybe they should focus on making sure everyone do their part and fire the lazy non productive workers and not price themselves out of jobs.
 
AerchAngel said:
No one fed me anything. Unions are a dying breed and there is nothing you or I can do about it. Maybe they should focus on making sure everyone do their part and fire the lazy non productive workers and not price themselves out of jobs.
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You got fed the worst of the worst stories and you're taking them in as they're the norm. You make it sound like a frickin mad house when a few electricians show up to wire up a house. Like they are just going ape **** and jerking off all over the place. Those stories you were told were exaggerated to the fullest extent. The IBEW unions wouldn't even be in existence if that was how they operated. Some old grumpy fart told you a story about some punk kids he worked with and in manifested itself into the reason why this country is falling apart in your mind. Of course that grumpy old fart is going to tell you the bad stuff. Who wants to hear a story about a good worker who gets the job done right? No one wants to hear or talk about that. You're only getting fed the bad stuff and it's obviously exaggerated. It's part of a small problem of another small problem that's part of a huge problem that we have here.
 
AerchAngel said:
umm, this information did not come from the big corporations, it came from my neighbor and the people I work with. I could care less what corporations said, you proclaiming that they do no wrong and do premium work was a farce.

You do know union uses the novices/noobs for most jobs, the ones that just got out of trade schools because that is all they can hire, which I didn't know until a few days ago, that is why I say they have 15 to 20 people on a house job that usually take less than half a dozen people. Interesting we had a big discussion on this a few days ago on another board and that is why I chimed in. People like you do not think they stuff don't stink. They are just as or moreso pulling your chain than me listening to any anti-union speak. You have to remember, I hate corporations because they are stingy. I do not like unions because they abuse their power and we are at their mercy if you have them under your roof. They can stink to high heaven knowing there is not a damn thing we can do about it but eliminate their position.
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My dad worked for a union for nearly 30 years. I have heard the good and the bad. He wouldn't have wanted his job without it being unionized because he would have been gotten rid of over and over again because he was good at his job but got expensive. He would have been ousted or not given a raise in a non-union gig.

I agree that unions often can be bad. Especially ones who have been around too long and gotten too comfortable. I'm anti-establishment, I believe that every few years leadership should be canned and started over again.
 
zitothebrave said:
My dad worked for a union for nearly 30 years. I have heard the good and the bad. He wouldn't have wanted his job without it being unionized because he would have been gotten rid of over and over again because he was good at his job but got expensive. He would have been ousted or not given a raise in a non-union gig.

I agree that unions often can be bad. Especially ones who have been around too long and gotten too comfortable. I'm anti-establishment, I believe that every few years leadership should be canned and started over again.
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My dad also worked for the union until he retired and we still have these discussions. My brother is a plant manager and he has to deal with unions and he tells me what I have learned at my job, weeding out bad workers costs a lot of money and time and you said it yourself, but it goes further than that ESP is getting the shaft if he gets 35% lower. All union workers I know now get paid the same or more than private sector in companies but independent contractors (single entities) make more because they can negotiate.

We would lost to outsourcing regardless if union or not, but they should have the vision to stop asking for more and more and maybe some of those jobs could have been saved.

I know you guys are pro-union with family ties like myself. Can my company fire me tomorrow, just because they can? No they cannot because of the contract I signed. People say that if you are in a union you protected. You are right and that gives you the power to be a 30% worker, come drunk, sleep on the job, knowing the company would have to go through layers before you are canned. I find that repulsive.
 
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