Hitting Coaches

U

USMA76

Well-known member
Ok, it's been pretty obvious for awhile now that Greg Walker and [forget his name--other guy] aren't getting the job done. Whether it's their fault or not isn't relevant because we have the suckiest offensive stats in the league and basically force our pitchers to give up two or fewer runs to have any chance to win. These coaches must be replaced.

The question is, who would you replace them with? I know Terry Pendleton struggled in that role but IIRC our offense looked like the 1927 Yankees compared to what we have now. I also wonder if Chipper Jones might be interested? You can bet that Chipper would either get results or jerk a knot in some rear ends (I'm looking at you BJ, CJ, and Andrelton) in the process. I also think Chipper could bring out the potential in our younger guys like LaStella.

That said, is there anyone who's realistically available or any highly regarded hitting coaches in our (or anyone else's) minor league system we could hire? Saying that our offense is putrid would be an insult to putrid.
 
Great players usually don't turn into great coaches.

Some of the best hitting coaches never amounted to much in the majors. Mark McGwire might be the most notable hitting coach in modern times.
 
BJ#1FAN said:
Great players usually don't turn into great coaches.

Some of the best hitting coaches never amounted to much in the majors. Mark McGwire might be the most notable hitting coach in modern times.
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The reason great hitters usually don't make great coaches is because it comes easy to them. They have the exceptional recognition, they have the crafted swing, hand eye and timing. Great hitters often make some great pointers, but rarely great coaches.
 
zitothebrave said:
The reason great hitters usually don't make great coaches is because it comes easy to them. They have the exceptional recognition, they have the crafted swing, hand eye and timing. Great hitters often make some great pointers, but rarely great coaches.
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You could've just said they don't make great coaches because they have natural talent that you can't teach.

Michael Jordan would never be a great coach because he just has and did things you can't teach.
 
CyYoung31 said:
We had a an above average-to-great offense every year TP held the position.
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He also had some really nice vets too. TPs biggest feat was getting Andruw to live up to his full power potential. Still couldn't get him to stop swinging at junk. Having Chipper in the middle of the order consistently didn't hurt.
 
BJ#1FAN said:
He also had some really nice vets too. TPs biggest feat was getting Andruw to live up to his full power potential. Still couldn't get him to stop swinging at junk. Having Chipper in the middle of the order consistently didn't hurt.
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The fact is that star players did not come here and tank under TP's watch. I think that is a better indicator of a hitting coach's value. In fact, players often times had career years under TP. Andruw, Sheffield, Lopez, Drew, Giles, Teixeira...

In 2010 we led the league in OBP with a bunch of bench players.
 
BJ#1FAN said:
Great players usually don't turn into great coaches.

Some of the best hitting coaches never amounted to much in the majors. Mark McGwire might be the most notable hitting coach in modern times.
Click to expand...

True. Just like some of the smartest people in the world aren't the best teachers. It is often difficult for them to realize that the people they are teaching don't have the same level of talent as they did.

Plus, Chipper's got enough money to never have to lift a finger again as long as he lives. Why would he want to subject himself to a grueling life where he's away from home for the better part of the year.

Edit: I missed zito's post before I started writing. We both have the same idea.

Edit 2: I really think hitting coaches are overrated. Anyone here remember Rudy Jaramillo? He was the hitting equivalent to Leo Mazzone at one point and is now out of baseball. Some guys have good ideas and are good teachers, but no coach can wave a magic wand and make impatient hitters patient.
 
50PoundHead said:
True. Just like some of the smartest people in the world aren't the best teachers. It is often difficult for them to realize that the people they are teaching don't have the same level of talent as they did.

Plus, Chipper's got enough money to never have to lift a finger again as long as he lives. Why would he want to subject himself to a grueling life where he's away from home for the better part of the year.

Edit: I missed zito's post before I started writing. We both have the same idea.

Edit 2: I really think hitting coaches are overrated. Anyone here remember Rudy Jaramillo? He was the hitting equivalent to Leo Mazzone at one point and is now out of baseball. Some guys have good ideas and are good teachers, but no coach can wave a magic wand and make impatient hitters patient.
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Chipper MIGHT be one of the lone exceptions to the rule. He actually learned how to be a better hitter in his later years once his bat speed slowed. And IMO his pitch selection from 2006-2012 was much much better than 1995-2005. Part of it had to do with the fact by the time he got to his mid 30's, he got respect from umpires like Bonds did on borderline pitches not being called strikes. Chipper could end up being a decent hitting coach, and the only thing that would bring him back to the game full time traveling, would be because he might be one of those baseball lifers. He might take 6-10 years off, and then decide he wants to come back.

Maddux, and maybe Glavine, could be the lone exceptions to the rule of being great pitching coaches with great playing resumes. Just because Maddux was the smartest pitcher ever, and Glavine probably was a few steps behind him in that department.

I agree on your point of making impatient hitters patient. Simmons might be one of those guys that never figures it out offensively. I think this year is somewhat of an aberration on his power being down, but I think he'll regress back to his norm of 15+ hr, .240-.250 avg maybe peaking around .270-.280 average. CJ is one of those guys that looks like he has a plan up there, but watching his entire at-bats proves otherwise. He's in that "hit it where it's pitched" department, problem is he swings at too many pitches that aren't strikes and is too aggressive when the pitcher is struggling.
 
Fred-McGriff-Will-Get-You-Results.jpg
 
Shameless plug here, but Savannah currently has a small market for tennis instruction outside of country clubs, which I'm lucky enough to have a steady independent clientele.

The other independent instructors in Savannah, were successful collegiate players, and a few even played professionally. I picked up tennis when i blew out my shoulder playing baseball, and have been teaching for about 5+ years. I never took a lesson, everything self taught, just recording myself going to the video room, watching professionals and analyzing their technique and form for common mechanical tendencies, etc. and then going back to the courts to apply what I studied and continue the cycle. The guys who were successful PLAYERS that teach now, can charge twice as much as I can because of their "playing days", whereas I'm just guy that picked it up late with no collegiate playing experience. I however had studied many different teaching techniques, and have picked apart what has worked best, and because I was never a great player with their natural talent, It's easier for me to "dumb it down" to juniors and beginners which speeds up their progress. Because I'm not explaining it and demonstrating how to hit a 110mph serve to a kid, and focusing rather the fundamentals of the swing and building power once the technique is mastered.

Rest assured, you can guarantee that the last 2 years, when my students whom have better form and technique, have been winning tournaments and beating the kids who are coached and taught by the "players" coaches, I have a great sense of satisfaction. Those guys could play me and probably beat me pretty handily, but knowing that my students are better than theirs because I'm a better teacher makes me continue.

It still irritates me that the guys who have the playing resumes still have a reputation for better coaching, despite the fact I've actually produced results for half their price.
 
Manager: Terry Pendleton
Pitching: Roger McDowell
Hitting 1: Don Baylor - dream hitting coach, but already under contract :-/
Hitting 2: Chipper - would be good to see him work with some of the guys but not need to have the pressure of a full work load
Bench: Ron Johnson...yes Chris Johnsons dad...know him pretty well and seen him with his teams, great baseball guy
Bullpen: Eddie Perez
 
BJ#1FAN said:
Chipper MIGHT be one of the lone exceptions to the rule. He actually learned how to be a better hitter in his later years once his bat speed slowed. And IMO his pitch selection from 2006-2012 was much much better than 1995-2005. Part of it had to do with the fact by the time he got to his mid 30's, he got respect from umpires like Bonds did on borderline pitches not being called strikes. Chipper could end up being a decent hitting coach, and the only thing that would bring him back to the game full time traveling, would be because he might be one of those baseball lifers. He might take 6-10 years off, and then decide he wants to come back.

Maddux, and maybe Glavine, could be the lone exceptions to the rule of being great pitching coaches with great playing resumes. Just because Maddux was the smartest pitcher ever, and Glavine probably was a few steps behind him in that department.

I agree on your point of making impatient hitters patient. Simmons might be one of those guys that never figures it out offensively. I think this year is somewhat of an aberration on his power being down, but I think he'll regress back to his norm of 15+ hr, .240-.250 avg maybe peaking around .270-.280 average. CJ is one of those guys that looks like he has a plan up there, but watching his entire at-bats proves otherwise. He's in that "hit it where it's pitched" department, problem is he swings at too many pitches that aren't strikes and is too aggressive when the pitcher is struggling.
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I think Chris Johnson has the same issue that Francoeur had (has). Just because you can reach it doesn't mean you can hit it with authority. The problem is, guys like that do something with a pitch well out of the strike zone enough to make them believe they have a sound strategy. I still remember the laser Francoeur hit off the Red Sox a few years back on a pitch that was about six inches off the ground and six inches outside. He still pulled a line-drive out to left that stayed in the park for about two seconds. Thing was scorched. Problem is, I imagine Francoeur was thinking "I am right. I have a sound approach." as he was circling the bases. Of course, the next time he swing at that pitch, he probably hit a lazy two-hopper to the shortstop.

To me, Simmons problem is that he's all arms in his swing. Doesn't seem to set his hitting foundation well.

As per Chipper, my guess is he knew he had to make adjustments and he made them on his own. Maybe TP said something. Maybe his dad said something. But I think self-aware players (and the greats are usually very self-aware) know what they need to do and find a way to do it as long as their physical ability is at a threshold that allows them to compete.
 
Chipper would however go through those slumps like everybody else and look awful (talking not even hitting the ball hard, just lazy ground balls and fly balls) where he'd need his dad to step in or whoever.

Just as I noticed Chipper getting older, he lost bat speed, but not direction of line drives and his pitch selection seemed to improve (and as I said before he also got a lot of calls go his way like Bonds, maybe just respect from umps for being a long timer).

I don't think a guy like Sheffield could be a great hitting coach because his swing wasn't too efficient like Chipper's (who's right handed swing was probably more efficient than his left), and despite having a great eye and walking a lot, that's something he just had that you really can't teach.

The other thing about CJ is to add on to your point, that's the downside of when he's in BABIP LORD mode. Oh I can take any pitch out of the zone and get a single somewhere. Forget walking when I can get a bat on the ball. Problem is this year he's not getting those BABIP benefits, and striking out and grounding out and hitting lazy flies. And he's still convinced himself it's bad luck, and not regression.
 
Sheffield had one of the fastest bats I've ever seen. You can't teach that. He had very good pitch recognition and could get on top of above average fastballs, even those up in the zone. Andruw Jones was the same way early in his career. I think the difference is that Andruw seemed to start his swing a little earlier and could thus be fooled by off-speed stuff. Sheffield's swing was so compact and quick that he seemed to be able to wait on just about everything.
 
Since the Dodgers brought in McGwire, we should bring in Bonds. Kidding.

Hitting coaches may not matter that much, but I think having a good teacher is important.

I've seen no evidence that Walker and Fletcher are that.
 
BJ#1FAN;153811 I agree on your point of making impatient hitters patient. Simmons might be one of those guys that never figures it out offensively. I think this year is somewhat of an aberration on his power being down said:
I watched Simmons go down on strikes last night and thinking of how he got injured his first year up. Meaning, he's learned how to not run so recklessly - I think this off season he will learn how to not be so reckless in the batters box. Every report on him the coaches gush at how hard he works and how coachable he is.
I am of a mind that during the season it is really hard to turn around a lifetimes worth of habits.

He was given a contract bump because the front office, scouts and coaches agreed there is desire and work ethic to constantly improve
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Posted this before, but it won't be Chipper. He's happily out of baseball to be rancher/hunter/dad. We will see him in spring training, but that's about it.

Pendleton is a fine choice, but obviously Fredi doesn't think so.

The Braves fired the best hitting coach in the farm system one week into the season. Still don't know what Jamie Dismuke did to lose his job, and I respect his privacy too much to ask him directly. But he had a lot of success stories.

How about Brett Butler? Been a fine minor league manager and loved his approach as a hitter.
 
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