So... what now? Season is over and Hart broke our hearts.

Could it be that some of us just don't like the guy? See him as the second coming of Bob Horner and would rather see him sitting 1/3 of the year on someone else's DL than ours? Get what you can for him while you can. Another injury plagued year and will be lucky to get marginal prospects for him.

This is about Gattis. Not really a lot to get. I can see both arguments, but we have really beaten this to death.

Gattis is a great hitter for a Catcher and over the course of the season puts up good numbers on a hitting challenged team... versus:

Gattis is a weak defender, has no position, could bring in a haul in a trade, and can't play everyday. He is also a really big guy, and big guys do not age well when they have to get in and out of a crouch 150 times per game day after day.

I think we all understand the argument. Both opinions have merit.
 
Trading Gattis is like trying to fix it where someone with no legs can run and the first thing you do is amputate their right arm.
 
I think the interesting dynamic in all of this with Hart in charge for the interim (and in the short-term if he decides to take the job in the short term or as in advisory role), is how he truely evaluates Fredi as a manager and how he handles the situation going forward. The questions that need to be answered is just how much have some of the decesions that have been made over the past few years on the baseball field been influenced by a egotistical control freak in charge.

Again I will repeat myself that I've been one of Fredi's biggest critics but if the organization had some internal workings and a sour attitude and lack of communication amongst those in charge, then maybe Fredi isn't as bad as it seem, but there needs to be some explaning done.

I've considered Fredi to be a manager much in the mold of a Mike Hargrove, a nice human being who can win some games with talent but isn't tough enough or strong enough to be a leader. Basically the team needs to be in cruise control and can win on its own, and that's what Cleveland had with one of the all-time dynamic offenses. The interesting thing in all of this is that Hart had Hargrove as his guy in charge for many of his years in Cleveland, although it wasn't necessarily a great working relationship. They got a long but many inside the organization, Hart included, thought that those teams during that era should have accomplished more than 2 World Series and 0 rings. Many will point to the fact that Hart never acquired or gave Hargrove a front line starter to matchup against a Maddux, Johnson, Cone, Brown, etc and many of the rotations were patched with middle of the rotation type veterans like Nagy, Burba, Hershisher, and Dennis Martinez. They really didn't have a legit #1 guy until Bartolo Colon came on late in the decade, but by that time their window was closed despite still winning a lot of games and winning the AL Central. Ultimately it all came to a head when Hart made the decesion to let Hargrove go after a collapse against the Red Sox in the playoffs, will Fredi have the same fate? We will find out.

Hart and Schueholz were basically the same GM, and interchangeable with the exception that JS had a pitching rich organization that was loaded with HOF starting pitching and great pitching depth but failed miserably at times to put together a complete team and fill holes and put together a complete roster with competant hitters that lead to only one WS title. Hart on the other hand was on the other end of the spectrum, he acquired and built a team around a dynamic offense with HOF caliber players up and down the lineup, but failed to fill the needs and acquire a frontline starter to matchup against the other great teams off that era.
 
That is true. It's why I wouldn't mind us trading Bethancourt if we got someone like Jaso to get some regular starts as backup vs RHP.

Sorry, I'm a Gattis fan, but Bethancourt showed more than enough to me that says if he can get us back something of significance....I trade him without fail.
 
Sorry, I'm a Gattis fan, but Bethancourt showed more than enough to me that says if he can get us back something of significance....I trade him without fail.

If you replace Gattis with Bethancourt, you might as well punt the offense for another season.
 
Gattis to me is not a long term answer at catcher. He's what 27? And he's a big dude. He's not gonna age well at all. I really like Gattis but no way do I trade Bethancourt.
 
Gattis to me is not a long term answer at catcher. He's what 27? And he's a big dude. He's not gonna age well at all. I really like Gattis but no way do I trade Bethancourt.

We need him one more year at least.
 
Gattis to me is not a long term answer at catcher. He's what 27? And he's a big dude. He's not gonna age well at all. I really like Gattis but no way do I trade Bethancourt.

We have Gattis in his prime years for cheap and he hasn't had a ton of time catching due to being out of baseball. He will likely crash fast once he hits 30 but that is a couple of years away. And replacing a 800+ OPS bat for sub 600 OPS bat will only make this team worse. Bethancourt has to hit or he's going to be nothing but a backup. Especially on a team that already features horrendous offense.
 
I hope we fire Fredi, still miss the playoffs so i can see what excuses yall will make.

Firing Fredi isnt going to make a dramatic difference.

What's funny is the people screaming the loudest have argued that managers make minimal impact on games in the past. Now they think making a change is going to turn us into World Series contenders. The bigger issue is the poorly built roster, not how the manager uses them.

I don't care what we do to be honest, I doubt firing the manager is going to solve our problems though.
 
One down, one to go on the paycheck receiving, sitting on their ass spitting seeds and not doing schit twins.
 
We have Gattis in his prime years for cheap and he hasn't had a ton of time catching due to being out of baseball. He will likely crash fast once he hits 30 but that is a couple of years away. And replacing a 800+ OPS bat for sub 600 OPS bat will only make this team worse. Bethancourt has to hit or he's going to be nothing but a backup. Especially on a team that already features horrendous offense.

Its not that. Gattis after Heyward is my fav player, but after his injury he basically sucked ass. It seems catching catches up to him and doesn't have the stamina. I hoped our idiot manager in charge would give him some time in LF and move JU to right and JH to center because of the SVOD in center but no, Wren wanted SVOD to play and leadoff so he hoped he could ressurect his terrible career and make him look good...but he didn't.

Gattis cannot catch more than half a year. Carrying 260 pounds behind the plate is a chore, ask Zito fat ass. He is 6'4" or 5 and weighs about the same weight and a catcher, he could tell you.
 
What's funny is the people screaming the loudest have argued that managers make minimal impact on games in the past. Now they think making a change is going to turn us into World Series contenders. The bigger issue is the poorly built roster, not how the manager uses them.

I don't care what we do to be honest, I doubt firing the manager is going to solve our problems though.

This is the reason Frank Wren was fired. I agree. Some have turned this issue into a managerial issue because they simply do not like Fredi for one reason or another and refuse to compare him to his peers who are all similar to a degree. It's not a managerial issue. The roster that was put together was done so poorly. Yes, the team had some talent, but the talent didn't fit. There were too many swing and miss players in the line up and not enough guys who could get on base and create offense with their speed and base running ability. Because of this, the Braves were a team that had to rely on the long ball to succeed. That worked last year when they won 94 games or so. This year, when the power dropped, it didn't work. Finding a balance on the roster was not done. Also, the bench was non-existent this year. I also think we had upper management people demanding that BJ Upton play, so I don't think Fredi had much of a choice in this.
 
This is the reason Frank Wren was fired. I agree. Some have turned this issue into a managerial issue because they simply do not like Fredi for one reason or another and refuse to compare him to his peers who are all similar to a degree. It's not a managerial issue. The roster that was put together was done so poorly. Yes, the team had some talent, but the talent didn't fit. There were too many swing and miss players in the line up and not enough guys who could get on base and create offense with their speed and base running ability. Because of this, the Braves were a team that had to rely on the long ball to succeed. That worked last year when they won 94 games or so. This year, when the power dropped, it didn't work. Finding a balance on the roster was not done. Also, the bench was non-existent this year. I also think we had upper management people demanding that BJ Upton play, so I don't think Fredi had much of a choice in this.

Ding ding ding. I remember saying this and got ran from the forum.

That is why I change my tune on Fredi. He was a puppet, a marionette and was force to do this.

Now his hitting coaches, they sat on their ass and did nothing, hell we got worse. SWUNG AT EVERYTHING. Crap in the dirt, some times 10 feet in front of the plate or 3 foot outside, or scraping dirt (CJ k's) but did we see adjustments, I will laugh until the morning on that, adjustments, a foreign word to our supposed, sitting on their ass hitting coaches collecting a paycheck probably laughing at CJ and Simba swinging at **** we wouldn't swing at and then wait till Friday and collect their check knowing Wren will still pay them.

Enough of them. One twin is gone and I hope the other will follow. I will give Fredi a chance because I believe Fredi was not the one in charge for this crap for most of the season, he as a yes man and I think Hart will tell him to do what he needs to do.
 
Its not that. Gattis after Heyward is my fav player, but after his injury he basically sucked ass. It seems catching catches up to him and doesn't have the stamina. I hoped our idiot manager in charge would give him some time in LF and move JU to right and JH to center because of the SVOD in center but no, Wren wanted SVOD to play and leadoff so he hoped he could ressurect his terrible career and make him look good...but he didn't.

Gattis cannot catch more than half a year. Carrying 260 pounds behind the plate is a chore, ask Zito fat ass. He is 6'4" or 5 and weighs about the same weight and a catcher, he could tell you.

I agree with that regarding Gattis. Which is why I thought it was smart that he didn't catch a lot to start last year. It kept him rested. I think the injury is what caused him issues in the 2nd half and not the everyday issues of catching all the time. Of course you could argue that catching that much caused him to get injured. Still, Gattis can hit and replacing him with someone who can't hit won't make this team better.

Regarding Fredi. I have no huge issues with him. It's not his fault that CJ, BJ, and Uggla were complete disasters and that Simmons regressed a lot as a hitter. We had 4 spots for most of the year that were among the worst in MLB in hitting at their positions. No manager can overcome that. Now the only issue I had with him were the times that BJ and Simmons hit high in the order. That was inexcusable and likely cost the team 2-3 games over the course of the year. Now with the way the season ended that didn't matter but before the collapse it could of had a huge impact.

I don't think managers have a huge impact on a baseball team. Bullpen usage and lineup construction matter but only so much. Talent on the field is what does it. Still Fredi has had two huge September collapses in 4 years and whether that's his fault or not he is still going to get blamed for it and I can see wanting to get someone else in here.
 
This is the reason Frank Wren was fired. I agree. Some have turned this issue into a managerial issue because they simply do not like Fredi for one reason or another and refuse to compare him to his peers who are all similar to a degree. It's not a managerial issue. The roster that was put together was done so poorly. Yes, the team had some talent, but the talent didn't fit. There were too many swing and miss players in the line up and not enough guys who could get on base and create offense with their speed and base running ability. Because of this, the Braves were a team that had to rely on the long ball to succeed. That worked last year when they won 94 games or so. This year, when the power dropped, it didn't work. Finding a balance on the roster was not done. Also, the bench was non-existent this year. I also think we had upper management people demanding that BJ Upton play, so I don't think Fredi had much of a choice in this.

It's funny that the same roster all of you say is so flawed won 96 games the year before. Also No one is arguing that players like Uggla and Bj needed to go or that they pretty much sucked. Fredi screwed the pooch last year in the playoffs when he didn't bring in Kimbrel. I thought he did do a good job last year overall though at setting his lineup with Heyward followed by Justin and Freeman. This is the thing that drives me the most crazy this year. We never seen that line up in 162 games. Why? Explain to me why he felt Bj should leadoff to start the season and from there no one knew who would bat where the rest of the season. I believe in putting someone somewhere and leaving them there as long as possible to give them the opportunity to produce at their maximum potential. We all know Bj will never reach that because of lack of effort. That guy should have been benched so many times for not hustling it isn't even funny. Bobby would never have let that happen in his days. ( Look back to Andrew Jones) I don't think this roster is as bad as some of you think. And Matt, why do we need a manager at all if it don't matter how he uses his players?
 
The thing about Andruw was Bobby disciplined him before he made his millions. Andruw was still a young kid learning the game and living with Bobby's actual house.

Bj is an 8 year veteran player with his contract guaranteed. Harder to discipline a guy like that in addition to having Wren pressuring you to play his investment.
 
The thing about Andruw was Bobby disciplined him before he made his millions. Andruw was still a young kid learning the game and living with Bobby's actual house.

Bj is an 8 year veteran player with his contract guaranteed. Harder to discipline a guy like that in addition to having Wren pressuring you to play his investment.

wow, another one that sees the light.

Now we see why he is gone. Warming up to keeping Fredi because I believe Wren managed this team, not Fredi.
 
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