World Series about to be won the Braves way.

MadduxFanII said:
I'm an optimistic sort, and I'm inclined to think we can turn things around in 2015 (in a bizarre way, the utter completeness of the collapse in September makes me more optimistic), but sure, there's a very legitimate argument that contention isn't a realistic goal next year. I think if the organization wanted to re-trench for a year or two before the opening of the new park and deal Heyward and Justin Upton for prospect help, that would be a fair idea. And if you want to savage Frank Wren, the Johnson extension isn't a bad place to start.

However, the point is that even if you buy into the most pessimistic portrayal of our current state, that positioning doesn't have anything to do with a departure from "the Braves way." No one was complaining about Wren's radical, anti-Braves approach to organization building when we won 96 games and smacked around the Nationals in 2013. Or when we won 94 games in 2012. Or even in the couple years before, including the 2011 collapse. Wren had a nice thing going, a consistent, winning organization, and there existed nary a peep about "the Braves way."

Hell, even something like replacing McCann with Gattis would seem an example of "the Braves way," insofar as it was an example of us letting an aging, expensive veteran go because we could replace him with younger, cheaper, home-grown talent.

Then things collapse this September, the knives come out and all of a sudden come the cries of, "Wren betrayed the Jedi Ord- I mean, the Braves Way! We have lost The Path of the Beam! Salvation lies only in a return to the way we did things in the Long-Ago."

The organization isn't in a great place now, no doubt. But we need good players, not a return to hoary cliches.
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1000X this.
 
Julio3000 said:
1000X this.
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Honestly, what worries me is that the organization will react so strongly to the failures of last season and the Royals' playoff run that they'll respond by doing silly things in the opposite direction, like making Bonifacio the everyday center fielder, trading Upton Magnus for some speedy slap hitter and patting itself on the back for finally getting the "true leadoff hitters" we've been missing since Bourn left.
 
I love this low-rent tautological bull****.

The Royals are winning because they have built a winning ballclub. They get the right results because they do things right.
 
Since 2000, the "winning Braves way" was mostly about being built to taking the division, then losing early in the playoffs.
 
MadduxFanII said:
I'm an optimistic sort, and I'm inclined to think we can turn things around in 2015 (in a bizarre way, the utter completeness of the collapse in September makes me more optimistic), but sure, there's a very legitimate argument that contention isn't a realistic goal next year. I think if the organization wanted to re-trench for a year or two before the opening of the new park and deal Heyward and Justin Upton for prospect help, that would be a fair idea. And if you want to savage Frank Wren, the Johnson extension isn't a bad place to start.

However, the point is that even if you buy into the most pessimistic portrayal of our current state, that positioning doesn't have anything to do with a departure from "the Braves way." No one was complaining about Wren's radical, anti-Braves approach to organization building when we won 96 games and smacked around the Nationals in 2013. Or when we won 94 games in 2012. Or even in the couple years before, including the 2011 collapse. Wren had a nice thing going, a consistent, winning organization, and there existed nary a peep about "the Braves way."

Hell, even something like replacing McCann with Gattis would seem an example of "the Braves way," insofar as it was an example of us letting an aging, expensive veteran go because we could replace him with younger, cheaper, home-grown talent.

Then things collapse this September, the knives come out and all of a sudden come the cries of, "Wren betrayed the Jedi Ord- I mean, the Braves Way! We have lost The Path of the Beam! Salvation lies only in a return to the way we did things in the Long-Ago."

The organization isn't in a great place now, no doubt. But we need good players, not a return to hoary cliches.
Click to expand...

Precisely. I wasn't complaining loudly about Wren, but I thought his moves erratic and not adhering to any particular set of guiding principles. He doled out a huge contract to Uggla (and I was one who said he wouldn't be productive through the contract) and a totally ridiculous contract to Melvin Upton. He also depended too heavily on injury-risk pitchers and he let the farm system go to hell. I'm still trying to figure out why people are scratching their heads over his dismissal. Wren reminded me of John Mullen, who drove a team with a decent young core into the ground in the early-1980s. I don't care what school one adheres to when running a baseball team, but Wren, like Mullen before him, belonged to no school. I think the approach of Cox, Snyder, Schuerholz, and Clark produced solid players and if you want to call that "The Braves' Way" or "Bobby Cox's Fun-Time Club," I don't really care. I just thought it was a solid set of player acquisition and development guidelines.

I think one of J. Upton or Heyward gets shopped, but I don't let either of them go unless there's a haul coming back our direction. They are two of our three core players and we don't have anyone to replace them. One can cobble an offense together a variety of ways, but you have to have starting pitching and that's the biggest issue staring us in the face as we head into next season.
 
MadduxFanII said:
The great thing about the concept of "the Braves way" is that the Braves don't have to play that way for it to qualify as "the Braves way." And you can blame all the team's failures on the fact that it wasn't playing according to The Way (with lots of Fastballs, I assume).

Shanks isn't terribly bright, but he can skillfully construct some bull****.
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How could Wren have ever been so blind?
 
50PoundHead said:
Precisely. I wasn't complaining loudly about Wren, but I thought his moves erratic and not adhering to any particular set of guiding principles. He doled out a huge contract to Uggla (and I was one who said he wouldn't be productive through the contract) and a totally ridiculous contract to Melvin Upton.
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I'm not Frank Wren (OR AM I?!), but I think in the winter of 2012 the big, broad plan was to bet heavy on youth and talent. Based strictly on performance, BJ was an overpay, though obviously the crater job he pulled would have made him an overpay at the league minimum- but he was a mega-talented 28-year-old with a great pedigree and some big seasons in the past. Justin was a good hitter and solid overall player, but if he was Justin McGillicudy, former 8th-round draft choice with the exact same performance record, you're probably more reluctant to trade Prado (a really solid, flexible Major League player) and Delgado for him.

Wren, I think, understood the flaws and risks of those guys, but also understood that an organization in our position can't really afford the free agents with flawless track records. So he saw an opportunity to radically make over the roster with the acquisition of two big-time, elite talents who were still in their primes and could carry the team for years to come.

It was a big risk even at the time, and with BJ it obviously failed more spectacularly than anyone could have thought possible. And, you know, I think it was a fair and reasonable risk- you have to swing big if you're a mid-market squad. But GMs are judged by results, not the merits of a decision at the time of the decision, and Wren burned himself. No doubt.

Uggla...I think that was just Wren putting too much emphasis on Uggla's track record and not enough on the downside risk. Most people had no problems with the extension when it was signed, though I'll pat myself on the back for going on the record against it.
 
MadduxFanII said:
I'm not Frank Wren (OR AM I?!), but I think in the winter of 2012 the big, broad plan was to bet heavy on youth and talent. Based strictly on performance, BJ was an overpay, though obviously the crater job he pulled would have made him an overpay at the league minimum- but he was a mega-talented 28-year-old with a great pedigree and some big seasons in the past. Justin was a good hitter and solid overall player, but if he was Justin McGillicudy, former 8th-round draft choice with the exact same performance record, you're probably more reluctant to trade Prado (a really solid, flexible Major League player) and Delgado for him.

Wren, I think, understood the flaws and risks of those guys, but also understood that an organization in our position can't really afford the free agents with flawless track records. So he saw an opportunity to radically make over the roster with the acquisition of two big-time, elite talents who were still in their primes and could carry the team for years to come.

It was a big risk even at the time, and with BJ it obviously failed more spectacularly than anyone could have thought possible. And, you know, I think it was a fair and reasonable risk- you have to swing big if you're a mid-market squad. But GMs are judged by results, not the merits of a decision at the time of the decision, and Wren burned himself. No doubt.

Uggla...I think that was just Wren putting too much emphasis on Uggla's track record and not enough on the downside risk. Most people had no problems with the extension when it was signed, though I'll pat myself on the back for going on the record against it.
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You've outlined the curse of the mid-market team. You want to take risks to play with the big guys and your finances don't totally preclude the taking of risks. I think the Justin Upton deal was a very good deal and I'll give Wren credit for that. He just guessed wrong with his big-ticket items.

I don't necessarily subscribe to Beane's approach in the assessment of talent, but I agree wholeheartedly with his approach to contracts. Of course, given his budget straits, his hand is forced on a lot of contract decisions and he's often forced to go to the baseball equivalent The Dollar Store to fill out his team. But he never seems to get stuck with a bad contract.
 
50PoundHead said:
I guess that's where we're parting ways in the assessment of the situation. Losing McCann (regardless of how he did in NYC) is a big difference in the clubs and Chris Johnson had a career year in 2013 and Simmons may have been exposed at the plate. And if you look at the scarcity of prospects in the minor leagues, we have to count on turnarounds on the existing roster to get back over .500. Add to this mess, the fact that we are currently short about 400 IP in the starting rotation and I'm going to have to be convinced otherwise that we are remotely a contender in 2015.

People talk about the "Braves' Way" like it's actually a pox. What is commonly referred to as the "Braves' Way" was established by Bobby Cox and Paul Snyder when Bobby was GM. That's what built the foundation for success in the 1990s. It did take Schuerholz coming over to make some moves (largely because Cox and Snyder seemed content to stay on the prospect road and not springing for some veteran help). But the prospects kept coming up until Chuck Lamar's confusing fantasy football with baseball and then was re-established after Lamar left.

I'm not advocating we adopt the Royals' style of play. I'm advocating that we get back on terra firma in the organization top-to-bottom. We're not there right now.
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This. I agree 100%. The Braves Way was centered around building a strong farm system with an emphasis placed on the make up of the player. We have very clearly gotten away from that.
 
I liked Blanco coming up (due to age for level and walk rate). But the Braves brass never seemed to appreciate what he brought to the table. He also played his last year or so with the Braves with a damaged wrist that was eventually surgically repaired.

Looking at the current Braves system, I seem some parallels between Kubitza and Blanco. Neither will be the main cog on a championship team. But both have useful attributes and could potentially be a starter on a very good team.

We'd be in great shape if we had been willing to go cheap in center with a homegrown player like Blanco rather than going for a big contract player.
 
Imagine Blanco is center over Melvin or Schafer...The Braves way doesn't value OBP..............

The Royals outbraved the Giants last night with that Escobar caught stealing that may have derailed a big inning so they resorted to hitting some Brave like doubles and homers.

Off topic, but is there anyone that keeps getting innings as ****ty as Strickland? WTF is Bochy doing?
 
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