Braves Trade Heyward, Walden to Cardinals for Miller and Tyrell Jenkins

If we're going to do this re-building thing, don't half-ass it. Go ahead and deal Justin, Gattis and Kimbrel. Cut BJ. The dumbest thing we could do would be to end it here and win 75 games next year while Upton and Gattis hit 45 meaningless home runs between them and Kimbrel accumulates another 35 meaningless saves while we die a little inside watching BJ Upton for another 140 games.
 
While I don't love the trade I'm not as up-in-arms about it as most seem to be. Jason Heyward is basically a great defensive outfielder until he shows something else at the plate.
 
Carp said:
I think people are also overstating the actual value Heyward has. Despite what fWAR says, it's pretty clear that offense is simply valued more importantly. And Heyward is coming off a pretty unimpressive season offensively. Now you might suggest we shouldn't have traded him at his lowest point, and that would be a fair point, but the other option was to watch him walk in 12 months and get picks. This move still improves our roration for the short term and long term. It only hurts our offense in the short term, as Heyward would be gone next yr anyways.

Looking at what we got in return, it's actually pretty good value, though obviously not a steal for us. Miller is a good pitcher at the major league level. Think about what sort of package it would take for us to trade Minor, and multiply that by 10. Miller has the potential to be a top end starter and has 4 yrs of control left.
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This is along my thinking as well. Teams will pay for potential, but won't give you a Tex like haul for a guy that hasn't come around yet.

His value is a controllable young SP with good stuff. Nothing wrong with that...

I like the prospect coming back too.
 
bravesnumberone said:
Agree it makes zero sense to say Heyward had to be traded, but then turn around and say Kimbrel is safe. You could get some good young offense back for him.
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Kimbrel will be in Atlanta through 2018, so keeping him makes sense if the goal is to purge the roster of anyone that isn't projected to be a main contributor in 2017. That's probably why TLS was moved...he wasn't going to be a contributor in 2017 with Peraza at 2B.

Either JUp extends, or I imagine he's traded soon too.
 
jpx7 said:
I'll be honest: I've been thinking a lot over the past year or so about dropping the Braves (and thus baseball) from the list of things I spend time worrying myself with as a spectator.

The first straw, for me, was the racist, suburban switch from a perfectly good stadium to a sparkly new one in an adjoining county. Sure, it may very well be good business, for them, but it left a nasty taste in my metaphorical mouth. But, I rationalized to myself, at least it will be good for the team on the field—and that's what I care about with respect to the Braves.

Now that same sparkly new stadium is being used as justification for another rebuild, right around the moment it felt like the last, post-Cox rebuilding just got some legs under it. And, honestly, I personally felt better about the direction of the team circa two months ago, at the end of the 2014 regular season than I do now—despite both that roster's and that management's warts—considering what I've seen, heard, and read from this new (but really pretty old) crew managing the latest round of rebuilding we're watching commence.

To top it off, from the perspective of my personal spectation: the first real shoe to drop is a trade of my favorite player—a kid I was elated to see the Braves draft, who I followed up the system, and who I really enjoyed watching—to the major-league team I despise most, and for a return whose quality leaves me feeling further skeptical about the evaluative capacities of the "new" regime.

There's more to come, I'm sure—and for the Braves sake, I hope the return on the younger Upton, Gattis, Kimbrel (if they're wise enough to trade him while they're at it), and whoever is a lot better than what the team received for Heyward. Nonetheless, it's certainly been enough to shake my desire to follow this (and thus any) club.

But I like baseball, and I like discussing baseball, so I'm not sure that just walking away is the best route, for me. At the moment, I'm seriously considering an alternative bargain: actively rooting against this team—at least for a few years.
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Well, I know I wasn't thinking about you when I posted my snark.

It's tough times for the squad right now. I've watched a ton of baseball over the years and I think the entire Wren era was leading up to this point. He limped it from year-to-year without a blueprint and when he finally had money, he wasted it on the likes of M. Upton and C. Johnson. It's the same thing that happened in Baltimore, but somehow Wren gets off the hook for that debacle and it falls at the feet of Peter Angelos (who is an extremely intrusive owner). If you are a mid-market team in the current economic structure of baseball, you have to have a plan and stick to it. Wren simply kept rolling the dice.

The farm system is in a shambles and I won't call out the earlier poster who somehow think that the Braves just head out to the woodshed and pick up a #3 starter. We have nothing of the sort in the system right now above A ball. Sims will be in AA next year (as will likely be Jenkins). We lost 400+ innings of quality starting pitching and we just got back 200 at a reasonable price in terms of dollars, but probably not in terms of the talent exchanged.

In fairness to Wren, the last few years of Schuerholz' term as GM saw similar missteps.

I'm torn on Heyward. People can blame hitting coaches and the like, but the coach isn't the guy standing in the batters' box. Heyward is a superb athlete; probably one of the five to ten best in the entire game in terms of raw all-around tools. But--and I'm sure people will torture the stats enough to prove me wrong--his offensive production hasn't matched his tools over the past couple of years. Getting hit in the head has likely contributed to that. I think he's too jumpy in the batters' box and he lunges a bit, which negates his significant power potential. Curious to see if a change of scenery helps him. I wish him the best.

As for me, I've lived through so many bad Braves' teams from the 1970s and 1980s that if there is a downturn, it won't be anything new.

PS--We do save money here, but given the direction of baseball salaries, I don't know what we can get for $11 million. I'm thinking we are going to see some DFA-diving for a couple of OFs and hopefully a LHH guy who can play some 3B.
 
gilesfan said:
Well, he actually is 24.

His rookie year was solid, but nothing special. He is a decent young, middle of the rotation starter...which is fine. But, he was acquired for Jason Heyward.......and Jordan Walden.

Claiming that starting staff is the best in baseball is hilarious. You think that staff puts up an ERA around the 3 mark?
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I believe I said if the Braves traded for Walker as well, it would be the best And yes, with that acquisition, I do. Currently, every single pitcher in the rotation has at least one season with an ERA close to 3.00 in over 150 innings pitched. Even your hate of Miller, he still had a 3.7 ERA this yr (and a great second half).
 
You think Hart goes to JUp and says gives us a reasonable extension or prepare to go to Seattle? :tchop:

Does this free us up to trade Minor? I guess Minor is in the top 3 pitchers.

Enscheff said:
Kimbrel will be in Atlanta through 2018, so keeping him makes sense if the goal is to purge the roster of anyone that isn't projected to be a main contributor in 2017. That's probably why TLS was moved...he wasn't going to be a contributor in 2017 with Peraza at 2B.

Either JUp extends, or I imagine he's traded soon too.
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Carp said:
I believe I said if the Braves traded for Walker as well, it would be the best And yes, with that acquisition, I do. Currently, every single pitcher in the rotation has at least one season with an ERA close to 3.00 in over 150 innings pitched. Even your hate of Miller, he still had a 3.7 ERA this yr (and a great second half).
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So basically everyone will have a career year in order to even be in contention for best rotation?
 
50PoundHead said:
Well, I know I wasn't thinking about you when I posted my snark.

It's tough times for the squad right now. I've watched a ton of baseball over the years and I think the entire Wren era was leading up to this point. He limped it from year-to-year without a blueprint and when he finally had money, he wasted it on the likes of M. Upton and C. Johnson. It's the same thing that happened in Baltimore, but somehow Wren gets off the hook for that debacle and it falls at the feet of Peter Angelos (who is an extremely intrusive owner). If you are a mid-market team in the current economic structure of baseball, you have to have a plan and stick to it. Wren simply kept rolling the dice.

The farm system is in a shambles and I won't call out the earlier poster who somehow think that the Braves just head out to the woodshed and pick up a #3 starter. We have nothing of the sort in the system right now above A ball. Sims will be in AA next year (as will likely be Jenkins). We lost 400+ innings of quality starting pitching and we just got back 200 at a reasonable price in terms of dollars, but probably not in terms of the talent exchanged.

In fairness to Wren, the last few years of Schuerholz' term as GM saw similar missteps.

I'm torn on Heyward. People can blame hitting coaches and the like, but the coach isn't the guy standing in the batters' box. Heyward is a superb athlete; probably one of the five to ten best in the entire game in terms of raw all-around tools. But--and I'm sure people will torture the stats enough to prove me wrong--his offensive production hasn't matched his tools over the past couple of years. Getting hit in the head has likely contributed to that. I think he's too jumpy in the batters' box and he lunges a bit, which negates his significant power potential. Curious to see if a change of scenery helps him. I wish him the best.

As for me, I've lived through so many bad Braves' teams from the 1970s and 1980s that if there is a downturn, it won't be anything new.
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Well said.
 
bravesnumberone said:
Agree it makes zero sense to say Heyward had to be traded, but then turn around and say Kimbrel is safe. You could get some good young offense back for him.
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Heyward didn't HAVE to be traded. If he had signed or negotiated with ATL on an extension then he would still be here.

I don't disagree on Kimbrel though. I would think Detroit would tolerate BJ if they had Kimbrel in the playoffs or in September. There is your money for Lester\Hamels and Moncada.
 
MadduxFanII said:
If we're going to do this re-building thing, don't half-ass it. Go ahead and deal Justin, Gattis and Kimbrel. Cut BJ. The dumbest thing we could do would be to end it here and win 75 games next year while Upton and Gattis hit 45 meaningless home runs between them and Kimbrel accumulates another 35 meaningless saves while we die a little inside watching BJ Upton for another 140 games.
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I don't agree with the Kimbrell part. I honestly just don't see a team willing to give us a decent value for him. Relievers (even the best ones) don't typically bring back all that great returns. So trading Kimbrell would essentially be a salary dump and nothing more.
 
Welp.

Obviously the Braves didn't feel like Heyward was going to re-sign. Mainly because the Braves were not willing to pay him for what he thought he was worth.

So we got Shelby Miller. Erratic, and unreliable and just a complete unknown at this point.

We just became worse as a team. It looks like the next few years could be bleak, but the winter is young. I'm sure we can get fleeced in a Justin Upton deal.
 
You have to believe that Atlanta was 100% sure Heyward was not going to sign at a reasonable rate with us, and we didn't have a shot to keep him.
 
Gary82 said:
Welp.

Obviously the Braves didn't feel like Heyward was going to re-sign. Mainly because the Braves were not willing to pay him for what he thought he was worth.

So we got Shelby Miller. Erratic, and unreliable and just a complete unknown at this point.

We just became worse as a team. It looks like the next few years could be bleak, but the winter is young. I'm sure we can get fleeced in a Justin Upton deal.
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I actually think Upton would bring a greater return than Heyward, so let's wait and see.
 
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