This.
Braves Trade Heyward, Walden to Cardinals for Miller and Tyrell Jenkins
- Thread starter MadduxFanII
- Start date
This.
So you said scoring runs is what matters, but not "who freaking cares?" The offense is the worst in the league in your mind and getting worse at offense is ok with you?
Rob Neyer:
When I say it's boggling, I don't mean it doesn't make any sense. I just mean it's hard to make sense of, because there are so many disparate elements.
In the deal, the Cardinals get one year of outfielder Jason Heyward, two years of relief pitcher Jordan Walden, and a pretty good draft pick if Heyward leaves via free agency after next season.
In the same deal, the Braves get four years of starting pitcher Shelby Miller and potentially six years of pitching prospect Tyrell Jenkins ... except Jenkins isn't much of a prospect at this point. While he might turn into something of real, quantifiable value, at this point he's a rounding error in the equation.
When I talked about this on the MLB Network with Brian Kenny, I talked about signals. To me, this trade is mostly about the Cardinals sending signals. They're sending a signal that a) they don't believe Shelby Miller will again become the fine pitcher he was in August, 2013; and b) Jason Heyward's outstanding defensive metrics tell us a true story about his value.
Heyward's power has declined, but meanwhile his defense just seems to get better and better; by my count, roughly 40 percent of his value over the last three seasons derives from his defense. Which makes him an outstanding player.
As for Miller, his disappearance in the 2013 postseason and his low strikeout rate in 2014 suggest that he's somehow broken. The Braves either don't believe this, or think they can fix him. We'll be watching.
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a...nals-shelby-miller-jason-heyward-trade-111714
When I say it's boggling, I don't mean it doesn't make any sense. I just mean it's hard to make sense of, because there are so many disparate elements.
In the deal, the Cardinals get one year of outfielder Jason Heyward, two years of relief pitcher Jordan Walden, and a pretty good draft pick if Heyward leaves via free agency after next season.
In the same deal, the Braves get four years of starting pitcher Shelby Miller and potentially six years of pitching prospect Tyrell Jenkins ... except Jenkins isn't much of a prospect at this point. While he might turn into something of real, quantifiable value, at this point he's a rounding error in the equation.
When I talked about this on the MLB Network with Brian Kenny, I talked about signals. To me, this trade is mostly about the Cardinals sending signals. They're sending a signal that a) they don't believe Shelby Miller will again become the fine pitcher he was in August, 2013; and b) Jason Heyward's outstanding defensive metrics tell us a true story about his value.
Heyward's power has declined, but meanwhile his defense just seems to get better and better; by my count, roughly 40 percent of his value over the last three seasons derives from his defense. Which makes him an outstanding player.
As for Miller, his disappearance in the 2013 postseason and his low strikeout rate in 2014 suggest that he's somehow broken. The Braves either don't believe this, or think they can fix him. We'll be watching.
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a...nals-shelby-miller-jason-heyward-trade-111714
tvsportscaster
Approaching Buddy Hernandez Territory
The negativity about this trade is amusing to me. I do understand some of it though. However, when you look like down deep. The Braves knew they weren't going to sign Heyward so why not get something for him while you can. His value at midseason wouldn't be as high and it's not likely Shelby Miller is not a highly thought of prospect. The Braves will also probably trade JUpton. The good news there if they do, that perhaps gives them enough money to pursue someone like Jon Lester.
Granted, it doesn't look good right now, but why don't we reserve judgement about how good or bad this team is going to be in 2015 until we see how the rest of the off-season unfolds.
Granted, it doesn't look good right now, but why don't we reserve judgement about how good or bad this team is going to be in 2015 until we see how the rest of the off-season unfolds.
The Three Headed Monster are geniuses.
They are showing Coppollela exactly what NOT to do so when he does become GM he'll do the right things.
They are showing Coppollela exactly what NOT to do so when he does become GM he'll do the right things.
Stopped reading when it said Heyward was our best player.
Ain't nothin like showing the fans you're going toward the "Braves Way" than trading the player who epitomizes it the most. (Quiet professional demeanor, hard working, all hustle, leadership potential, and everything else).
In terms of overall value -- relative to position on the field, position in the lineup, athleticism, ceiling, marketability -- I think you are going to have a really hard time proving that Freddie Freeman ranks above Heyward. If that is who you are envisioning as the 'best' player.
Tapate50
Well-known member
Justin Upton was pretty good too.
Tapate50
Well-known member
I'm not sure you know what the "braves way" is.
The Braves Way is not paying 25M+ over 8 years to a guy with a mid 700 Ops when you can't afford it. I am not sure why this is a new concept. It is the same thing that has gone on in ATL for years. We got a very useful two pieces back and shed payroll. It isn't anything that is new.
Offensively, yes. Everything else; not so much.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
Is RF defense that valuable? If JHey is 40% Defense then I feel better on this trade. I can't see paying 15-20 million for great RF defense. SS, CF....but RF?
Miller is not broken. He's a middle of the rotation guy on a playoff team now. Broken is Lowe or KK.
I do have more faith in McDowell getting Miller to a number 2 level than I do any hitting coach making Heyward a 25/25 guy or BJ a MLB avg hitter.
Miller is not broken. He's a middle of the rotation guy on a playoff team now. Broken is Lowe or KK.
I do have more faith in McDowell getting Miller to a number 2 level than I do any hitting coach making Heyward a 25/25 guy or BJ a MLB avg hitter.
Tapate50
Well-known member
Had a 2 flat era second half of last year. I think thats a good size sample to just be optimistic about.
jsebe10
Well-known member
It's hilarious. Some of the same people I've read btch week in and week out about Heyward's play are now acting like a bunch over dramatic whores about this situation. If you don't like it, simply don't watch or go to the games...hell some of you probably have never even stepped foot in the Ted....
It's a real big conspiracy in the front office to take this team steps baxkwards after a lousey season...come on
It's a real big conspiracy in the front office to take this team steps baxkwards after a lousey season...come on
Except he is and most people actually believe that. The only ones who don't think defensive metrics are wrong which seems like a lot of posters on here. The Cards are one of the best organizations in baseball. I think they know the value that Heyward has which is why they traded for him.
I agree with your comments on Miller completely. I think he'll do just fine in Atlanta and I'm excited to see how he grows under McDowell's tutelage.
Going back to Heyward; I absolutely, without hestiation, believe that RF defense (plus, in all fairness, Jason practically played CF too, given his range) is that valuable. Especially at a moment in the game's evolution where we are seeing pitching and 'small-ball' making a pretty strong return.
defense is valuable regardless of where it comes from. if you are saving runs then you are saving runs. and the braves will be giving up a lot back in 2015. Expect the team era to take a big hit.
CrimsonCowboy
Moderator
Completely agree
Athleticism and potential, sure. He has the potential to be our best player. On actual production, it's not even close. I mean in what reality did Heyward have close to a good of a season as Stanton? Yet WAR would have you believe they were nearly equals. It's completely absurd to put that much value into defensive metrics considering how inconsistent they are. Yet people throw them out there like they are fact.
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
I've not read all of Hart's comments yet but I'd like him to explain why this had to be done now as opposed to talking to teams at the winter meetings.