Braves Trade Heyward, Walden to Cardinals for Miller and Tyrell Jenkins

Hawk said:
Dude, Mike Stanton just got $325MM. Jacoby Ellsbury got $169MM last year (at age 30).

Contracts are going up, up, up. Baseball is a boomin' business.

Big bull market! Get rich quick!
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I get that..it's a fair point. But until this boomin business raises the Braves payroll we can't pay $20M for Jason Heyward.
 
Hawk said:
I was referring to his stats in Memphis (AAA) circa 2012.
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Well you can't very well say 3 years of regression when he comes back out the next year and pitches like the best rookie in the league. Teheran didn't have much different of a progression.
 
zbhargrove said:
Well he's only had 2 real seasons in the MLB so there's your first error. Don't know how you could say he's been sliding for 3 years when a little over a year ago he was a ROY candidate with an ERA around 3.00, 15 wins, and a K/9 innings of 8+
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Also -- need to make this very clear, again -- I like Miller, just not for Jason Heyward.
 
No one seems to have considered this: Hart has made these moves a full month in advance of the Winter Meetings. This is when the Moves and Shakers move and shake, so what else happens. Don't even think the budget is that big a concern because they're one year closer to the new stadium.

I see another semi-blockbuster in the works.
 
rico43 said:
No one seems to have considered this: Hart has made these moves a full month in advance of the Winter Meetings. This is when the Moves and Shakers move and shake, so what else happens. Don't even think the budget is that big a concern because they're one year closer to the new stadium.

I see another semi-blockbuster in the works.
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Nice insight. We have cleared some serious payroll.
 
emk418 said:
I get that..it's a fair point. But until this boomin business raises the Braves payroll we can't pay $20M for Jason Heyward.
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I think you'll come to find the Braves could have spent $20M for Heyward, but did not feel he was worth it.
 
rico43 said:
No one seems to have considered this: Hart has made these moves a full month in advance of the Winter Meetings. This is when the Moves and Shakers move and shake, so what else happens. Don't even think the budget is that big a concern because they're one year closer to the new stadium.

I see another semi-blockbuster in the works.
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We've considered it. That reason alone is why many of us think he didn't get what he could for Heyward.
 
rico43 said:
No one seems to have considered this: Hart has made these moves a full month in advance of the Winter Meetings. This is when the Moves and Shakers move and shake, so what else happens. Don't even think the budget is that big a concern because they're one year closer to the new stadium.

I see another semi-blockbuster in the works.
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I agree... I think its silly and ridiculous for people to get all up in arms about this when we have no idea what other moves will be made. Giles' mantra crap of "who will replace him in the lineup... how will Gattis/Bethancourt replace Heyward" is useless because he has no freaking clue who will be in the lineup instead of Heyward. None of us have any clue whether Gattis will be playing LF... do you really think Hart is going to just say, "oh yah, of course we're trading him." Wait till the off season is done to judge the team... good lord.
 
Dalyn said:
We've considered it. That reason alone is why many of us think he didn't get what he could for Heyward.
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Yah, it couldn't be that getting a middle of the rotation proven SP who has a ceiling of a #2 for a sub .750 offensive player who can't hit lefties was a really good deal.
 
zbhargrove said:
Well you can't very well say 3 years of regression when he comes back out the next year and pitches like the best rookie in the league. Teheran didn't have much different of a progression.
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I'm just noting that Miller has his weak points ... apparently, pitch selection and command are two huge ones ... that aren't anything particularly new to learn about. Much like Jason Heyward does with power, LHP, etc. (which was the context behind my original response to chip).
 
rico43 said:
I think you'll come to find the Braves could have spent $20M for Heyward, but did not feel he was worth it.
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And, for me, that'd just make the whole scenario worse—but there are obviously some very divergent valuations of Heyward floating about.
 
Hawk said:
I'm just noting that Miller has his weak points ... apparently, pitch selection and command are two huge ones ... that aren't anything particularly new to learn about. Much like Jason Heyward does with power, LHP, etc. (which was the context behind my original response to chip).
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Jason Heyward has weak points and he's under control for a much shorter amount of time and is much more expensive... with not signs that he's improving... Miller's last 12 starts and a whole rookie year look promising.
 
Dalyn said:
So now it has gone from a fair deal to a really good deal? Awesome. This one keeps getting better.
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What happens if it does end up being a really good deal? It very well could. If JHey keeps playing the way he has and Miller is an above average to very good starter for 5 years, its pretty easy to call it a really good deal. I wasn't saying it was a really good deal, I was saying it has the potential to be... you're only giving credence to the view of a terrible deal and not leaving the possibility open to it being a good deal which is very short sighted of you.
 
zbhargrove said:
What happens if it does end up being a really good deal? It very well could. If JHey keeps playing the way he has and Miller is an above average to very good starter for 5 years, its pretty easy to call it a really good deal. I wasn't saying it was a really good deal, I was saying it has the potential to be... you're only giving credence to the view of a terrible deal and not leaving the possibility open to it being a good deal which is very short sighted of you.
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That's not what's happening here.
 
Joe Posnanski, doing awesome, Joe Posnanski things:


There’s something fascinating to me about all this. One of the constant themes of this blog, I think, is talking about that overused word: “Narrative.” And the narrative seems to be that Stanton is an awesome superstar of the sport and that Heyward is a perfectly good player but, honestly, kind of a disappointment, what with dwindling home run numbers and batting averages.

Is the narrative right? Well, it’s hard to say. Giancarlo Stanton and Jason Heyward help teams win in very different ways. Stanton’s way is much more noticeable. He hits home runs off scoreboards. He crunches line drives that go back in time. He walks a lot because baseballs are afraid to get too close to him. He’s right out of Greek mythology.

And Heyward, well, he he hits some home runs (fewer the last couple of years) and he steals some bases, and he walks some, and he plays amazing defense, and it all just kind of adds up.

On the same day: Stanton gets the biggest contract ever given. Heyward gets a ticket out of town.

Maybe it simply comes down to Bill James’ definition of overrated and underrated — “Specialists and people who do two or three things well are overrated; players who do several things well are underrated.” This is not to say Stanton is a one-dimensional player — he runs OK, he’s a pretty good outfielder, he walks etc. But certainly Heyward does more things well.

The question, in the end, is this: Who will be the better player the next five or six years? This might be crazy talk, but I’m not sure that it will be Stanton. I love the guy, love watching him play, but there seems a hype about him that doesn’t quite match the player. Meanwhile, there’s a sense of disappointment about Heyward from some that I don’t think matches either. Both teams made major decisions on Monday. It’s at least possible that both teams will regret it.
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I'd like to believe that Hart was offering Heyward to many teams and this is the best deal he could get. Miller was looking like a potential stud prospect a few years back. It generally takes longer for pitchers to develop as opposed to hitters.
 
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