the CIA torture report is sickening

Hawk said:
Right now I'm just sitting here attempting to process your previous post suggesting that Bedell visit the "Bodies" exhibit to help formulate his opinion on abortion.
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Do you know what the bodies exhibit is?

Glad we can go down the rabbit hole of the abortion debate more in the American torture report thread though
 
goldfly said:
Do you know what the bodies exhibit is?

Glad we can go down the rabbit hole of the abortion debate more in the American torture report thread though
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I look for any excuse possible to go down the rabbit hole.

Anyways, yeah, I went (to "Bodies") in Vegas. It was cool, and informative, but I don't think Bedell's beliefs on the subject of abortion would be swayed at all by it.
 
That might be true

But I thought the parts with different growth of the fetus was eye opening and would find it hard to believe for someone while looking at the early stages to say "that's a human"

It had an impact on my view
 
Back on topic though:

@trevortimm: Just a reminder: there are 6,000 pages of the torture report still secret. Amazing that was only the summary.
 
goldfly said:
That might be true

But I thought the parts with different growth of the fetus was eye opening and would find it hard to believe for someone while looking at the early stages to say "that's a human"

It had an impact on my view
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How could you say it is anything other than a growing human life? If you do you certainly aren't using a biological definition...

But the point Garmel originally raised by including abortion in this discussion still stands. Then 57 went and crystallized it all for us by first saying abortion is like knee replacement surgery and then that undergoing sleep deprivation torture was worse than being dismembered or burned in saline solution. That's an odd moral high ground from which to hurl self-righteous sermons.
 
I'm surprised it took so many posts to get to the ticking time bomb argument. It poses a reasonable question (akin to the moral calculus of bombing German city centers during WWII, or Hiroshima/Nagasaki). I also submit, respectfully, that it's a dodge. As is the fact that we're talking about abortion.

ISIL's beheading of prisoners or al-Qaeda's attacking the US are not arguments for torture. To me, they are powerful reminders of exactly why we should not torture. If we sanction, and even promote, inhumane and degrading treatment of prisoners, I think it's too easy to look in the mirror and see the people we consider our enemies.
 
BedellBrave said:
Put me down with being against abortion, torture, the determination of the GJ in the Garner case, the burning and looting in Ferguson, racism, and the militarization of police forces.
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Burning and looting in Ferguson would been avoided if the cop did his f-ucking job and not be a f-ucking idiot and wait for this backup, you know, use common sense. That is why his ass was fired, trying to be a damn hero.
 
Runnin said:
I don't believe torturing your enemies is really about gaining information, even though that's always the stated reason. It's more from frustration and not having the patience or intelligence to find any other solution. Same goes for the gross rise in police violence. When violence is basically your answer for everything, how can a little torture be a surprise?
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AWESOME POST!!!!!
 
Julio3000 said:
I'm surprised it took so many posts to get to the ticking time bomb argument. It poses a reasonable question (akin to the moral calculus of bombing German city centers during WWII, or Hiroshima/Nagasaki). I also submit, respectfully, that it's a dodge. As is the fact that we're talking about abortion.

ISIL's beheading of prisoners or al-Qaeda's attacking the US are not arguments for torture. To me, they are powerful reminders of exactly why we should not torture. If we sanction, and even promote, inhumane and degrading treatment of prisoners, I think it's too easy to look in the mirror and see the people we consider our enemies.
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Yep

What did old Ronald say on the matter?

“The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of [this] Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution,” – Ronald Reagan’s signing statement on the ratification of the UN Convention on Torture.

Allow me to repeat:

Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.
 
AerchAngel said:
Burning and looting in Ferguson would been avoided if the cop did his f-ucking job and not be a f-ucking idiot and wait for this backup, you know, use common sense. That is why his ass was fired, trying to be a damn hero.
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It also would have been avoided had Brown not been a criminal and a complete idiot.
 
thethe said:
It also would have been avoided had Brown not been a criminal and a complete idiot.
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Both parties played a part, yay. Difference is though, one of them is dead. Let's get back on topic to torture please and not turn this thread into it's own torture of people getting off track.
 
thethe said:
It also would have been avoided had Brown not been a criminal and a complete idiot.
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blaming the victim, a lot of crimes happens everyday, I do not see officers being idiots in arresting them and no protests, DUH. The cop did not do his job had to resort to killing because he F-UCKED UP. Now all that happened afterwards was his fault because again he was a F-UCKING IDIOT, not using any common sense. Why is it that my wife cousin in the Milwaukee police department called him an idiot. Under no circumstances with two suspects you get out of the car to confront them. He said that. I understood it, I had eight policemen drawn weapons on me because I was in a car with 2 other people, STANDARD PROCEDURE, Cedar Rapids does not have much crime but the cops know to stay in their car, Milwaukee police stay in their car, but this F-UCKING not a policeman now idiot did not.

He lost his job because....he was a no common sense idiot and killed a person (he was right in doing it, never said he was when they are going for your gun) because he was a f-ucking idiot.
 
BedellBrave said:
How could you say it is anything other than a growing human life? If you do you certainly aren't using a biological definition...

But the point Garmel originally raised by including abortion in this discussion still stands. Then 57 went and crystallized it all for us by first saying abortion is like knee replacement surgery and then that undergoing sleep deprivation torture was worse than being dismembered or burned in saline solution. That's an odd moral high ground from which to hurl self-righteous sermons.
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Well , we disagree. Like I said many posts ago when I proposed we take this debate up at another time on another thread / forum.

This is how you think we should talk to or treat those that disagree with us ?? By spelling out in detail a medical procedure and taking out of context at will what others say to fit your political agenda ??
and, make no mistake , your stand is political. When it affects others lives and rights, that is kinda the definition of political.
And if not political a tad on self-righteous

That my friend , is " an odd moral high ground "
 
57Brave said:
Well , we disagree. Like I said many posts ago when I proposed we take this debate up at another time on another thread / forum.

1. This is how you think we should talk to or treat those that disagree with us ?? By spelling out in detail a medical procedure and taking out of context at will what others say to fit your political agenda ??
2. and, make no mistake , your stand is political. 3. When it affects others lives and rights, that is kinda the definition of political.
And if not political a tad on self-righteous

That my friend , is " an odd moral high ground "
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1. I spelled it out because you avoid the victim in your comparison between torture and abortion. You made the latter only about the mother and not the human life being taken. I spelled it out because you emphasized the means of torture (sleep deprivation). So, I emphasized the means of abortion. In other words, I wanted to make clearer comparisons to emphasize Garmel's point which you had obscured. Why that's uncalled for means of discussion per the guy who flippantly compares abortions to knee replacement surgeries is beyond me. And how did I take you out of context?

2. I didn't say my stand wasn't political. I don't cubby-hole things like that. My stand is biological, theological, political, etc. All are involved.

3. And yes, abortion affects lives - more lives than you want to admit.
 
AerchAngel said:
Burning and looting in Ferguson would been avoided if the cop did his f-ucking job and not be a f-ucking idiot and wait for this backup, you know, use common sense. That is why his ass was fired, trying to be a damn hero.
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Avoidable or not, I am still against it. Those property owners aren't responsible for the actions of the cop or the deceased.
 
“Terrorism has replaced Communism as the rationale for the militarization of the country [America], for military adventures abroad, and for the suppression of civil liberties at home. It serves the same purpose, to create hysteria.”
— Howard Zinn
 
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