Braves sign Chase Utley (lite) to a minor league deal

[Carp]

What are you going on about? I said that he was borderline, not that he would get in. What I said is true.

If by borderline, you mean not really close at all, then yes he is borderline.

I doubt he gets enough votes to stay on the ballot. He's about as HOF worthy as Vinny Castilla or Ken Caminiti. He was better than them, but that is the group of players he more relates to, imo.

 

[zitothebrave]

Never won an MVP. Won't tally any sexy counting stats beyond 400 HR. Only 4 All-Star selections. Hardly ever led the league in any category. Played in the era of inflated offensive numbers.

Dumb criteria? Yes. But some voters really do care more about that stuff.

I think he's all-time top 10 at his position, but I said that he had earned "serious consideration" simply because I don't necessarily trust the voters to punch his ticket.

Disagree on all time top 10 as of right now.

He could get there though. All he needs is a small needle movement forward. For me my top 10 3B are (in kinda order)

Schmidt
Matthews
Chipper
Boggs
Brett
Robinson
Santo
Rolen
Molitor
Killebrew

I can see him if he has one more seeason though like he did last and no major crash being top around Robinson/Brett

 

[CyYoung31]

If by borderline, you mean not really close at all, then yes he is borderline.

I doubt he gets enough votes to stay on the ballot. He's about as HOF worthy as Vinny Castilla or Ken Caminiti. He was better than them, but that is the group of players he more relates to, imo.

He'll stay on the ballot, but he won't get in. He also compares favorably to other HoF 3rd baseman. That's borderline.

 

[Julio3000]

Disagree on all time top 10 as of right now.

He could get there though. All he needs is a small needle movement forward. For me my top 10 3B are (in kinda order)

Schmidt
Matthews
Chipper
Boggs
Brett
Robinson
Santo
Rolen
Molitor
Killebrew

I can see him if he has one more seeason though like he did last and no major crash being top around Robinson/Brett

I wouldn't argue with the guys on your list on their merits, but Molitor didn't play 3rd for the better part of a decade at the end. He logged considerably more time as a DH over the course of his career. Killebrew played more 1B and OF than 3B, too.

 

[zitothebrave]

True, I just listed thme because they qualify as 3B.

 

[Knucksie]

Yeah, eventually.

A bigger proportion of the voters are going to be of the generation that grew up with Beltre, Ramirez, Chipper, and Rolen, rather than with Mike Schmidt . . . or even Eddie Mathews.

Those who grew up with Eddie Mathews -- and let me take this opportunity to express my shame at "Braves fans," who are more interested in Fangraphs than appreciating the true greats of this franchise, but we digress. Of those who are eligible on that list above, Chipper will be a first ballot, having been the finest switch hitter since probably Mantle. Rolen tailed off too quickly. Beltre, maybe, but as OP noted, it will require a wait. Voters do not take candidacies lightly, and what they look for is league leaders in important offensive categories, major awards and multiple All Star selections don't hurt.

 

[Gary82]

Beltre is a HOFer.

Unless he did steroids.

In that case, he's a HOFer.

 

[Carp]

He'll stay on the ballot, but he won't get in. He also compares favorably to other HoF 3rd baseman. That's borderline.

Doubtful. Better 3b than him have failed to make it past the 1st ballot.

 

[thewupk]

Those who grew up with Eddie Mathews -- and let me take this opportunity to express my shame at "Braves fans," who are more interested in Fangraphs than appreciating the true greats of this franchise, but we digress. Of those who are eligible on that list above, Chipper will be a first ballot, having been the finest switch hitter since probably Mantle. Rolen tailed off too quickly. Beltre, maybe, but as OP noted, it will require a wait. Voters do not take candidacies lightly, and what they look for is league leaders in important offensive categories, major awards and multiple All Star selections don't hurt.

Aramis doesn't have much of a shot but I doubt he gets booted off the first time. That said Rolen and Beltre will be the best 3B not in the HOF if for some reason they linger around. I know quite a few don't believe in WAR, especially old school voters, but Beltre and Rolen currently sit at 9th and 10th respectively on the all-time 3B list. And you can pretty much bump them up a spot as Arod sits at #1 and I don't consider him a 3B and well he's never going to see the HOF without a ticket. Rolen has quite a few more gold gloves and AS appearances than Beltre to help him even though he tailed off at the end of his career. I feel he will get in although it will take awhile.

As others have mentioned Beltre is vastly underrated and has been for quite some time. He also had a slow start to his career. But assuming he doesn't completely fall off and stays semi productve the next couple of years he is going to have some impressive numbers even if you take away his WAR which should put him at 8th all-time when he's done at minimum. He is going to have 400+ homers and 1000+ extra base hits. A very real shot at 3000 hits as he needs 396 more. A reputation as the best or 2nd best defensive 3B of his generation.

I previously noted that Beltre would get in within 2-3 voting cycles but honestly if he hits those few counting milestones I see him getting in on the first try. I feel like each year more emphasis does get put on advanced stats with the voters and in 8 years or so we will have even more appreciation for guys like Beltre and Rolen.

 

[The Tariff King]

Yeah. Saber community has really really helped push Raines to getting closer to getting in. Can only imagine that Rolen and Beltre will be strongly helped by the saber community.

I can see the voting priorities changing because even the old school guys like Gammons, Kurjkian, Stark, etc. are all looking at the stat community more and more and using it to influence their votes.

If you told me 12-13 years ago Beltre would have a hall of fame career... I would've laughed. I still remember the deal he signed with seattle after the ridiculous career season he had with LAD. I remember the years before that he was all potential that hadn't lived up like Andruw. Man what a turn around he's had in his career.

 

[thewupk]

Yeah. Saber community has really really helped push Raines to getting closer to getting in. Can only imagine that Rolen and Beltre will be strongly helped by the saber community.

I can see the voting priorities changing because even the old school guys like Gammons, Kurjkian, Stark, etc. are all looking at the stat community more and more and using it to influence their votes.

If you told me 12-13 years ago Beltre would have a hall of fame career... I would've laughed. I still remember the deal he signed with seattle after the ridiculous career season he had with LAD. I remember the years before that he was all potential that hadn't lived up like Andruw. Man what a turn around he's had in his career.

Yeah. I don't think it will matter eventually but had he not went to Seattle for 6 years his overall counting stat would be insane. He'd likely be pushing down the 500 homer barrier.

 

[zitothebrave]

Aramis doesn't have much of a shot but I doubt he gets booted off the first time. That said Rolen and Beltre will be the best 3B not in the HOF if for some reason they linger around. I know quite a few don't believe in WAR, especially old school voters, but Beltre and Rolen currently sit at 9th and 10th respectively on the all-time 3B list. And you can pretty much bump them up a spot as Arod sits at #1 and I don't consider him a 3B and well he's never going to see the HOF without a ticket. Rolen has quite a few more gold gloves and AS appearances than Beltre to help him even though he tailed off at the end of his career. I feel he will get in although it will take awhile.

As others have mentioned Beltre is vastly underrated and has been for quite some time. He also had a slow start to his career. But assuming he doesn't completely fall off and stays semi productve the next couple of years he is going to have some impressive numbers even if you take away his WAR which should put him at 8th all-time when he's done at minimum. He is going to have 400+ homers and 1000+ extra base hits. A very real shot at 3000 hits as he needs 396 more. A reputation as the best or 2nd best defensive 3B of his generation.

I previously noted that Beltre would get in within 2-3 voting cycles but honestly if he hits those few counting milestones I see him getting in on the first try. I feel like each year more emphasis does get put on advanced stats with the voters and in 8 years or so we will have even more appreciation for guys like Beltre and Rolen.

How Beltre ages the next 2-3 years will dictate how easily he gets in. If he has 2 more years like 2012 or 2013 where hes healthy and productive, he's a lock. An absolute lock. The trick is he's old so you never know when they bottom will drop out. If he has 2 years like 2012 or 2013 he'll be over or right under 3000 hits, over 450 homers, and knocking on the door of 600 doubles. For those who don't know, there's only 14 players in baseball history with 600 or more doubles. Every one of them but Barry Bonds and Pete Rose is in the Hall of Fame, If he hits that 600 double mark, he'll become the 6th hitter in baseball history with 600 doubles and 400 homers (though Pujols will probably get there first)

Bonds - 601 and 762
Ripken - 603 and 431
Aaron - 624 and 755
Yaz - 646 and 452
Musial - 725 and 475

 

[Knucksie]

Aramis doesn't have much of a shot but I doubt he gets booted off the first time. That said Rolen and Beltre will be the best 3B not in the HOF if for some reason they linger around. I know quite a few don't believe in WAR, especially old school voters, but Beltre and Rolen currently sit at 9th and 10th respectively on the all-time 3B list. And you can pretty much bump them up a spot as Arod sits at #1 and I don't consider him a 3B and well he's never going to see the HOF without a ticket. Rolen has quite a few more gold gloves and AS appearances than Beltre to help him even though he tailed off at the end of his career. I feel he will get in although it will take awhile.

As others have mentioned Beltre is vastly underrated and has been for quite some time. He also had a slow start to his career. But assuming he doesn't completely fall off and stays semi productve the next couple of years he is going to have some impressive numbers even if you take away his WAR which should put him at 8th all-time when he's done at minimum. He is going to have 400+ homers and 1000+ extra base hits. A very real shot at 3000 hits as he needs 396 more. A reputation as the best or 2nd best defensive 3B of his generation.

I previously noted that Beltre would get in within 2-3 voting cycles but honestly if he hits those few counting milestones I see him getting in on the first try. I feel like each year more emphasis does get put on advanced stats with the voters and in 8 years or so we will have even more appreciation for guys like Beltre and Rolen.

The 3,000 hits threshold has always been regarded as the guarantee, unless your name happens to be Pete Rose. Some voters are funky about making candidates wait, like we just witnessed with Biggio. It's not like the perception of the career alters because of an extra year or two to consider.

 

[thewupk]

The 3,000 hits threshold has always been regarded as the guarantee, unless your name happens to be Pete Rose. Some voters are funky about making candidates wait, like we just witnessed with Biggio. It's not like the perception of the career alters because of an extra year or two to consider.

Or Palmiero.

I agree 3000 hits is still an auto entry unless you are invovled in steroids or perma banned. That's one thing that pisses me off about voters. You are either a hall of famer or not. How some voters can vote for a guy one year and not the next just baffles me. Their careeres haven't changed.

The only exception I have is for those who make a player wait one year. Now I can understand that if you want your inner circles guys on the first ballot and others the next. I don't agree with that thinking but I can understand it. The voters who seemingly change their votes from year to year just need to give up their ability to vote.

That's why I truly appreciate the voters that will always vote for a paritcular candidate once they have casted a vote for them unless they feel there are 10 other people more worthy. Which is another rule that's stupid.

 

[buck75]

I guess it is possible that KJ will be in the Hall of Fame. That's what this thread is about I guess.

 

[blueagleace1]

Those with high post counts seem to share a tendency toward defensiveness and overreaction. Nobody used the term, "insane." However, there are often disconnects in these types of discussions. One poster is arguing his own imaginary HOF and/or overrating of WAR vs. mine, which is whom 75% of voters might realistically agree upon.

As for the names above, it's too many when considering only 11 3B's have made it all time. Belre and Rolen tailed off after great starts. Chipper is slam dunk. Wright and Longoria look good at this point, but years of toiling on poorer teams could take tolls by the time they retire.

One more time, Zito. You really have to visit the HOF/museum and witness the induction ceremony to soak in the history. When you grasp that only over 200 players in the history of the game have gotten the call, in comparison with everybody's who's played MLB, then you begin to understand what it really means. It has nothing to do with visiting Fangraphs. We can discuss over Scotch in Cooperstown, but honestly, I'd rather talk about indie rock.

I have to disagree.. look what Beltre has done the last three seasons in which he played at ages 33-35 respectively. If he were to retire tomorrow, I think he would be a borderline candidate for the Hall. If he were to have 2-3 more years, producing numbers just remotely close to what he has done the past 5, I think he gets in.. no questions asked. A slam-dunk.

As far as Ramirez goes, I don't think he gets in but I do think Cy's "borderline" statement is very fair. If he were to get in though, I wouldn't be shocked by any means.

 

[Knucksie]

Or Palmiero.

I agree 3000 hits is still an auto entry unless you are invovled in steroids or perma banned. That's one thing that pisses me off about voters. You are either a hall of famer or not. How some voters can vote for a guy one year and not the next just baffles me. Their careeres haven't changed.

The only exception I have is for those who make a player wait one year. Now I can understand that if you want your inner circles guys on the first ballot and others the next. I don't agree with that thinking but I can understand it. The voters who seemingly change their votes from year to year just need to give up their ability to vote.

That's why I truly appreciate the voters that will always vote for a paritcular candidate once they have casted a vote for them unless they feel there are 10 other people more worthy. Which is another rule that's stupid.

Some will never vote for any candidate on the first ballot. The only other explanation is that some voters will change their check marks, year to year, because they don't want too many candidates to get in at the same time. That's why 4 voted in for 2015 is so unusual.

 

[Knucksie]

As far as Ramirez goes, I don't think he gets in but I do think Cy's "borderline" statement is very fair. If he were to get in though, I wouldn't be shocked by any means.

You won't have to worry about any future shock, because he's never going to be inducted. Seriously, though, the only shock is that this discussion has carried on this long. Maybe people are bored in winter? Who knows?

As a favor to the forum, here is a list worth reading. Before somebody protests (and somebody probably will anyway) this isn't intended to endorse the site as "authoritative." However, to the best of my knowledge, nobody else has gathered 100 names in one place to analyze. Also, 4 of the names are in the Class of 2015, so they apparently don't omit first year candidates.

Anyway, have a look as a reminder that it's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good.

http://www.notinhalloffame.com/baseball?limitstart=0

For those with outside interests, they also cover football, basketball, hockey, rock & roll, etc.

 

[blueagleace1]

You won't have to worry about any future shock, because he's never going to be inducted. Seriously, though, the only shock is that this discussion has carried on this long. Maybe people are bored in winter? Who knows?

As a favor to the forum, here is a list worth reading. Before somebody protests (and somebody probably will anyway) this isn't intended to endorse the site as "authoritative." However, to the best of my knowledge, nobody else has gathered 100 names in one place to analyze. Also, 4 of the names are in the Class of 2015, so they apparently don't omit first year candidates.

Anyway, have a look as a reminder that it's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good.

http://www.notinhalloffame.com/baseball?limitstart=0

For those with outside interests, they also cover football, basketball, hockey, rock & roll, etc.

Knucksie you, just like anyone else on this forum, are instilled to your own opinion and we understand that you don't think he is a candidate. No one has said that he is a "lock" or a "slam-dunk" but that a case could be made for him to either make it in or not make it in.

 

[Knucksie]

Knucksie you, just like anyone else on this forum, are instilled to your own opinion and we understand that you don't think he is a candidate. No one has said that he is a "lock" or a "slam-dunk" but that a case could be made for him to either make it in or not make it in.

That's not the point. Has nothing to do with my opinion. It's about what's realistic. Somebody who, at best, finished 9th in MVP voting and had 3 All Star appearances, clearly wasn't regarded as "a cut above the rest" during his active playing career. Eventually, retiring isn't going to change anything. The guy will have earned a very nice living, playing a fun sport with over 3 months off.

Anyhow, spend the time with that site. That was the reason for posting it.