zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Calling him borderline isn't insane. But he's not in the discussion for me, behind Beltre, Rolen, Chipper, and will be behind Wright and Longoria almost certainly
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CyYoung31
Shift Leader
What are you going on about? I said that he was borderline, not that he would get in. What I said is true.
Those with high post counts seem to share a tendency toward defensiveness and overreaction. Nobody used the term, "insane." However, there are often disconnects in these types of discussions. One poster is arguing his own imaginary HOF and/or overrating of WAR vs. mine, which is whom 75% of voters might realistically agree upon.
As for the names above, it's too many when considering only 11 3B's have made it all time. Belre and Rolen tailed off after great starts. Chipper is slam dunk. Wright and Longoria look good at this point, but years of toiling on poorer teams could take tolls by the time they retire.
One more time, Zito. You really have to visit the HOF/museum and witness the induction ceremony to soak in the history. When you grasp that only over 200 players in the history of the game have gotten the call, in comparison with everybody's who's played MLB, then you begin to understand what it really means. It has nothing to do with visiting Fangraphs. We can discuss over Scotch in Cooperstown, but honestly, I'd rather talk about indie rock.
CyYoung31
Shift Leader
Those with high post counts seem to share a tendency toward defensiveness and overreaction. Nobody used the term, "insane." However, there are often disconnects in these types of discussions. One poster is arguing his own imaginary HOF and/or overrating of WAR vs. mine, which is whom 75% of voters might realistically agree upon.
As for the names above, it's too many when considering only 11 3B's have made it all time. Belre and Rolen tailed off after great starts. Chipper is slam dunk. Wright and Longoria look good at this point, but years of toiling on poorer teams could take tolls by the time they retire.
One more time, Zito. You really have to visit the HOF/museum and witness the induction ceremony to soak in the history. When you grasp that only over 200 players in the history of the game have gotten the call, in comparison with everybody's who's played MLB, then you begin to understand what it really means. It has nothing to do with visiting Fangraphs. We can discuss over Scotch in Cooperstown, but honestly, I'd rather talk about indie rock.
Lord, I was born a ramblin' man...
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Those with high post counts seem to share a tendency toward defensiveness and overreaction. Nobody used the term, "insane." However, there are often disconnects in these types of discussions. One poster is arguing his own imaginary HOF and/or overrating of WAR vs. mine, which is whom 75% of voters might realistically agree upon.
As for the names above, it's too many when considering only 11 3B's have made it all time. Belre and Rolen tailed off after great starts. Chipper is slam dunk. Wright and Longoria look good at this point, but years of toiling on poorer teams could take tolls by the time they retire.
One more time, Zito. You really have to visit the HOF/museum and witness the induction ceremony to soak in the history. When you grasp that only over 200 players in the history of the game have gotten the call, in comparison with everybody's who's played MLB, then you begin to understand what it really means. It has nothing to do with visiting Fangraphs. We can discuss over Scotch in Cooperstown, but honestly, I'd rather talk about indie rock.
Actually if you use WAR, Aramis isn't in the discussion. Baseball reference's JAWS system which uses career rWAR balanced with peak rWAR has Aramis at 58th cause he's been a highly consistent hitter. The one statheads like myself would argue in that you will probably say doesn't belong would be Rolen or Beltre. Cy used more traditional stats. What Cy didn't factor in was the bogeyman awards that make a difference. Aramis only has 3 AS selection and a SS.
The reason only 11 3Bs have made it is that there isn't that many deserving 3Bs. Most of the deserving guys haven't hit the ballot yet (Chipper, Rolen, Beltre, and long term decent shots like Wright and Longoria) 3B as a position has improved massively since the 90s.
As far as Rolen and Beltre, I don't get where you think they tailed off. Rolen was hurt a lot later in his career, but until his last 2 careers he performed quite well. Beltre is still one of the best 3B in baseball at 35. Beltre's issue is his 5 years he spent languishing in Seattle, aka death to right handed power town. Infact when you look at Beltre's numbers, he didn't start strong, like a lot of kids don't. His first 6 seasons with the dodgers featured one where he was above average for his position offensively. Then his MVP caliber season happened and then he languished in Seattle, then he left Seattle for Boston and Texas and he's been awesome since. Does he suffer a bit from his Seattle years? Yes. But he more suffers cause like Rolen his defense is a healthy chunk of his value.
Wait and see what happens, 5 years after he retires with the amount of support he receives. Finishing 9th once in league MVP won't result in very many check marks on the ballots.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
There's going to be turnover in the HoF voters, too.
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
I think Beltre is an easy HOFer. He's been largely underrated his entire career, and I still think he is even today. IMO he's one of the 10 best players in the game, and has been consistently.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I think he is, too. I don't know if he'll get credit for it from the current crop of voters, but he ought to get in.
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
Yeah, I could see him not getting his due. He already doesn't, guys that don't even cover baseball anymore will be clueless.
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
In my mind, it isn't.
But I think his career is very underrated on the whole. He's an amazing player and has been for a while.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Never won an MVP. Won't tally any sexy counting stats beyond 400 HR. Only 4 All-Star selections. Hardly ever led the league in any category. Played in the era of inflated offensive numbers.
Dumb criteria? Yes. But some voters really do care more about that stuff.
I think he's all-time top 10 at his position, but I said that he had earned "serious consideration" simply because I don't necessarily trust the voters to punch his ticket.
Braves1976
It's OVER 5,000!
I agree, Beltre is a treat to watch play ball and his defense at third has long been very impressive. It is almost embarrassing watching CJ try to play third after watching Beltre.
Beltre is a HOFer in my view regardless.
jpx7
Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is.
They'll be confounded?
You mean with retirements from the BBWA?
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Yeah, eventually.
A bigger proportion of the voters are going to be of the generation that grew up with Beltre, Ramirez, Chipper, and Rolen, rather than with Mike Schmidt . . . or even Eddie Mathews.
CyYoung31
Shift Leader
I used traditional stats because that's what all the list he gave me contained. And I'm lazy.