Seattle Restaurant Closings

zitothebrave said:
You managed to ignore history and still think letting the wealthy run rampant is a good idea because "You wouldn't work for X"
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I'm not ignoring history at all. I'm asking you directly, if that was the case, why isn't everyone working for minimum wage today? Why isn't my employer colluding with everyone - as you suggested could happen with no minimum wage - to take my very healthy salary down to peanuts?
 
zitothebrave said:
And what were things that drove that change? It couldn't have been labor laws could it? I mean things didn't drastically change post WWII and that didn't have a massive effect do to the big changes put in play by the guys running the government before that period. No let's just pretend the market changed because of demand.
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Technology explains almost all of it... And well the protection of property rights, and financial markets.

You may find some studies that cite anti monopoly laws as a reason for some growth (which isn't the same as minimum wage laws) but far and away the biggest drivers of growth are what I cited above.
 
zitothebrave said:
Never said that. You jumped to that point. I said go ask people at the turn of the century how great their lives were. Minimum wage came into play in 1938 or something like that. Post WWII has arguably been the greatest era in American history as far as the middle class is concerned. Are the 2 directly linked? Maybe not but the correlation is very strong with it.
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This statement here is why the phrase "correlation does not mean causation" was invented.
 
sturg33 said:
I'm not ignoring history at all. I'm asking you directly, if that was the case, why isn't everyone working for minimum wage today? Why isn't my employer colluding with everyone - as you suggested could happen with no minimum wage - to take my very healthy salary down to peanuts?
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It's funny because pro sports are prime example of why employers won't collude.

Minimum salary is around $500,000 and there are almost no veterans that make that amount of money once they enter the open market. Even the Chad Durbin's of the world make more than that.

People that think that minimum wage laws affect everyone don't understand that the market for labor is competitive and that employers will compete for it.
 
chop2chip said:
People that think that minimum wage laws affect everyone don't understand that the market for labor is competitive and that employers will compete for it.
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Those teams wouldn't have money to pay players if we didn't spend 30 bucks a ticket plus concessions and watch them on TV nad so on so forth. Scaling still runs into effect. Babe Ruth made a lot more than the average worker in the 20s as well.
 
zitothebrave said:
Those teams wouldn't have money to pay players if we didn't spend 30 bucks a ticket plus concessions and watch them on TV nad so on so forth. Scaling still runs into effect. Babe Ruth made a lot more than the average worker in the 20s as well.
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I don't think people making the minimum wage constitute the major demo that's buying tickets and concessions.
 
chop2chip said:
I don't think people making the minimum wage constitute the major demo that's buying tickets and concessions.
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No, but they making more means that you really think you need more money, and so on so forth. The tighter the income gap between richest and poorest has lead to economic growth in pretty much all cases. In situations where the inequality is greatest, it leads to poor economic growth.
 
zitothebrave said:
No, but they making more means that you really think you need more money, and so on so forth. The tighter the income gap between richest and poorest has lead to economic growth in pretty much all cases. In situations where the inequality is greatest, it leads to poor economic growth.
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Inequality, sure. It can lead to poor economic growth. There just isn't evidence that minimum wage laws affect inequality. They certainly don't benefit the middle class.
 
Companies aren't going to collude to keep wages down....they are going to compete to hire the best employees. That's a dumb argument to be frank.

Also, $15 to grab some food and pour some drinks? I know a intelligent people that are willing to work hard that don't make $15 per hour.
 
gilesfan said:
Companies aren't going to collude to keep wages down....they are going to compete to hire the best employees. That's a dumb argument to be frank..
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See you're jumping into a different argument. Your argument makes sense in current america imagine that we do what sturg wants and pull government out of the way of corporate America, then monopolies reign again and you can bet they'll keep wages way down.
 
zitothebrave said:
See you're jumping into a different argument. Your argument makes sense in current america imagine that we do what sturg wants and pull government out of the way of corporate America, then monopolies reign again and you can bet they'll keep wages way down.
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I don't understand what the difference is. Your argument is that with no minimum wage, companies would collude to ensure they pay you as little as possible.

But they can do that today with the exact same ability to pay you minimum wage - yet 97% of workers make more than that
 
sturg33 said:
I don't understand what the difference is. Your argument is that with no minimum wage, companies would collude to ensure they pay you as little as possible.

But they can do that today with the exact same ability to pay you minimum wage - yet 97% of workers make more than that
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I actaulyl never argued that haha. You think I am for some reason, but I said "Go as people in 1900 about how great their lives were when they were making a dollar a day working 9+ hour days." you decided to bring that to modern day truths. But yeah remove government regulations. When all mom and pop shops are shut down by Walmart, etc. and then you have no choice but to be self sufficient or work at Walmart for whatever the **** they tell you to work at Walmart for, same with McDonalds, pick any other poison. Minimum wage is part of a sweeping change that happened earlier last century which is a likely reason why we're where we are now, you know with a middle class. Not you know poor or rich.

Say we repeal minimum wage. Then say McDonalds goes out and cans their current employees and replaces them with as dirt cheap of employees as possible, they don't adjust their price, they just pocket the difference, cause that's what they do. You're thinking of what life would be like for the people who aren't working jobs where minimum wage is a factor. True most places don't pay minimum wage, they pay a bit above it so they can pound their chest and say they're above minimum wage. Is your system necessarily bad? Maybe not, but there will be a ****load more poor people and an influx in immigrants.
 
zitothebrave said:
I actaulyl never argued that haha. You think I am for some reason, but I said "Go as people in 1900 about how great their lives were when they were making a dollar a day working 9+ hour days." you decided to bring that to modern day truths. But yeah remove government regulations. When all mom and pop shops are shut down by Walmart, etc. and then you have no choice but to be self sufficient or work at Walmart for whatever the **** they tell you to work at Walmart for, same with McDonalds, pick any other poison. Minimum wage is part of a sweeping change that happened earlier last century which is a likely reason why we're where we are now, you know with a middle class. Not you know poor or rich.

Say we repeal minimum wage. Then say McDonalds goes out and cans their current employees and replaces them with as dirt cheap of employees as possible, they don't adjust their price, they just pocket the difference, cause that's what they do. You're thinking of what life would be like for the people who aren't working jobs where minimum wage is a factor. True most places don't pay minimum wage, they pay a bit above it so they can pound their chest and say they're above minimum wage. Is your system necessarily bad? Maybe not, but there will be a ****load more poor people and an influx in immigrants.
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Your knowledge of supply/demand/economics is so bad.

If McDonalds hired cheap ass labor and kept costs the same, its competitors would hire cheap ass labor and lower its prices and put McDonalds out of business. They are still a service industry....why do you think Mexicans aren't fast food workers? You have to speak English and offer some service. No skills puts you in a roofing or landscaping business.

But, no, you still have to have some level of service for as cheap as you can pay them. (and rightfully so, you are talking about fast food employees) If McDonalds was paying $1 per hour, someone else would hire the best help (out of that group) at $1.50 an hour.

I don't really have an issue with minimum wage per se. But, getting rid of it is more beneficial than increasing it to some astronomical amount such as $10 or $15 per hour.
 
10 an hour isn't astronomical.

Anyway you think all that drives our buying decisions/economy ist supply/demand? McDonalds and Burger King constantly look for ways to lower labor costs to increase profits. No one can undercut them. No one has their advertising, brand recognition, etc. I'm gonna pick on Burger King here. Burger King charges like 8 bucks for a double whopper with cheese meal . This awesome burger joint by me charges 8 bucks for a burger and fries plus probably 1-2 bucks for a drink. For marginally more money you can get a massively superior burger so why aren't people going there in droves like to BK? It isn't supply/demand.

Supply and demand applies to part of what drives cost but not what drives consumer purchasing. To pick on another thing, Budweiser tastes like ass, but people drink it because of, guess what, advertising!
 
zitothebrave said:
10 an hour isn't astronomical.

Anyway you think all that drives our buying decisions/economy ist supply/demand? McDonalds and Burger King constantly look for ways to lower labor costs to increase profits. No one can undercut them. No one has their advertising, brand recognition, etc. I'm gonna pick on Burger King here. Burger King charges like 8 bucks for a double whopper with cheese meal . This awesome burger joint by me charges 8 bucks for a burger and fries plus probably 1-2 bucks for a drink. For marginally more money you can get a massively superior burger so why aren't people going there in droves like to BK? It isn't supply/demand.

Supply and demand applies to part of what drives cost but not what drives consumer purchasing. To pick on another thing, Budweiser tastes like ass, but people drink it because of, guess what, advertising!
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$10 is 25% more expensive than $8. That's not "marginally" more.

And yes, these companies look for ways to cut costs because they are predicated on offering cheap products. And yes, they are trying to increase profits - that is what a company should always be doing.

People drink budwiser because it is cheaper. You get cheaper product by cutting costs - either by labor or by ingredients or by operations processes.
 
McDonald's isn't a monopoly and wouldn't be able to act like one in the absence of a min wage...I'm not following that argument at all.
 
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