Vizcaino suspended 80 games

Knucksie said:
Did you go check him out? Or was it just "follow the crowd" after the hype started. OTOH, if you were "in the know," you could've alerted everybody when he was in A ball.
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I was one of his first and strongest supporters here, and it started before he made the majors. Just like I am now with Martin.
 
Knucksie said:
Did you see me claim that La Stella couldn't be a "reasonable big leaguer regular" at any point? Indeed, my first hand account of him was generally positive. Now, for those who post with excessive fanboy-ism, man-crushes or give a rat's about what "Talking Chop" thinks, they should expect to be sources of scorn & ridicule. See the difference?

You can spare me the lecture about reading AAA stats. (It's gotten pounded enough into everybody's heads, by enough other posters, since the early days of Scout.) A trained monkey can read Fangraphs, and pretend that he's an "expert" on projecting future major league talent. At least that trained monkey would admit that Utley Lite wasn't really going to achieve 1.000 OPS, as opposed to crying that Prado "stood in the way" or Cox "never had confidence in young players."
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No, and I didn't say that you did. I only suggested that the "Hype Machine" wasn't particularly far off. Some people have bolder projections for him, but I'm talking in terms of consensus.

I'm not sure what KJ and Prado have to do with any of it.

See the difference?

You know, if you're going to go the patronizing route, you might need to up your game a tad.
 
thewupk said:
Why is there hatred towards LaStella now? Was it that unreasonable for people to get excited and want a league average 2B after watching Uggla? News to those that are unaware. Had the Braves had league average production out of CF and 2B the past two seasons Wren is likely still the GM and the Braves outlook is most certainly better than it is right now.
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We'd still largely be in the same boat. Some measure of rebuild would still have to take place after 2015 and we'd have to replace a ton of starting pitching innings for 2015 with a limited budget to do it.
 
Julio3000 said:
I'm not sure what KJ and Prado have to do with any of it.

See the difference?

You know, if you're going to go the patronizing route, you might need to up your game a tad.
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Kelly was the golden boy of the "statheads." Honestly, I don't remember your user name from Scout, so couldn't even recall if you were among the Utlley Lite worshippers. Even after years into his career, the excuses where like in that other post. They will never admit that he wasn't Something Special.

Another was Marte. Somebody really posted "a decade of Gold Gloves with Mike Schmidt power." Admittedly, just about everybody thought he was Chipper's heir apparent, but a couple of us mentioned some cautions.

Point is that reading Fangraphs isn't the end all of player evaluation.
 
Knucksie said:
Kelly was the golden boy of the "statheads." Honestly, I don't remember your user name from Scout, so couldn't even recall if you were among the Utlley Lite worshippers. Even after years into his career, the excuses where like in that other post. They will never admit that he wasn't Something Special.

Another was Marte. Somebody really posted "a decade of Gold Gloves with Mike Schmidt power." Admittedly, just about everybody thought he was Chipper's heir apparent, but a couple of us mentioned some cautions.

Point is that reading Fangraphs isn't the end all of player evaluation.
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I'll give you a hint. His username was "Julio3000" pretty hard to figure out.

Kelly was hardly a golden boy, McCann was the golden boy. Kelly was recognized as a valuable asset. Some said that he would be better than Francoeur. Both of those statements are true.

Marte you don't have a solid point. Essentially everyone loved Marte until some cracks started to show. Then some people quickly jumped off the bandwagon and were happy to blurt out "I told you so!" even if they were hyped for Marte.
 
thewupk said:
Why is there hatred towards LaStella now? Was it that unreasonable for people to get excited and want a league average 2B after watching Uggla? News to those that are unaware. Had the Braves had league average production out of CF and 2B the past two seasons Wren is likely still the GM and the Braves outlook is most certainly better than it is right now.
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The excitement over LaStella was because he was gonna be a successful hitter. His floor was a low .700 OPS. He K'd too infrequently, hit too many LDs and walked to much to not be an asset. No one was annointing him anything. But Knucksie's been beating this horse for a long time. Just like the Utley Lite comments. He harps on things whether they're said or not. Makes for good internet fun, not for good honest discussion.
 
50PoundHead said:
We'd still largely be in the same boat. Some measure of rebuild would still have to take place after 2015 and we'd have to replace a ton of starting pitching innings for 2015 with a limited budget to do it.
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It's possible. I just don't see the team hitting the reset button if the Braves won last year. I see one of Heyward/Upton being retained and going from there.
 
Knucksie said:
Kelly was the golden boy of the "statheads." Honestly, I don't remember your user name from Scout, so couldn't even recall if you were among the Utlley Lite worshippers. Even after years into his career, the excuses where like in that other post. They will never admit that he wasn't Something Special.

Another was Marte. Somebody really posted "a decade of Gold Gloves with Mike Schmidt power." Admittedly, just about everybody thought he was Chipper's heir apparent, but a couple of us mentioned some cautions.

Point is that reading Fangraphs isn't the end all of player evaluation.
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I was a big fan of KJ, and felt that he got buried too quickly and that the Braves decision to cut bait on him—with no return—was unwise. He was a solid hitter, became a decent defender, and was a good baserunner considering he didn't have a lot of speed. His big year in Arizona was something that we could have used. He fell a bit short of what I thought he MIGHT be . . . based on observation with my own l'il eyeballs.

I was never a particular fan of Andy Marte's. My inclination was more in the "mentioning cautions" camp. And if my posting career at Scout had been more memorable, you'd recall that I was fairly consistently critical of how some, ahem, senior figures on that board would relentlessly jock any Braves prospect. I think that the bloom was off the rose (as far as the board was concerned) by the time we traded him.

So why not just consider TLS in a vacuum, without all of these associations? I think that his MiLB track record and a sheaf of scouting reports all put his floor and ceiling in about the same place. I trust my eyes, but I don't flatter myself to think that my watching a few ballgames is going to add that much to the conversation.
 
Knucksie said:
No, it's not, but no everybody spent as much time on the board as you.

His fanboys wet themselves over him. Let's not try and rewrite history.
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I think you're confusing being upset about what happened to KJ (being cut, even being benched for Prado) with people wetting themselves. Your posting history shows more than a litter tendency to rewrite history.
 
Knucksie said:
No, it's not, but no everybody spent as much time on the board as you.

His fanboys wet themselves over him. Let's not try and rewrite history.
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Are we really doing the "x group of people wet themselves over y player and y player was bad" thing? Cause theres plenty of that type of stuff to go around for statheads and scouties. Plenty of scouties wet themselves over Ryan Langehans. Beating dead horses doesnt make the 2015 Braves any better.
 
Julio3000 said:
I was a big fan of KJ, and felt that he got buried too quickly and that the Braves decision to cut bait on him—with no return—was unwise. He was a solid hitter, became a decent defender, and was a good baserunner considering he didn't have a lot of speed. His big year in Arizona was something that we could have used. He fell a bit short of what I thought he MIGHT be . . . based on observation with my own l'il eyeballs.
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Toward the end of his time with the Braves, there was a lot of "deer in headlights" with him at the plate.

Julio3000 said:
I was never a particular fan of Andy Marte's. My inclination was more in the "mentioning cautions" camp. And if my posting career at Scout had been more memorable, you'd recall that I was fairly consistently critical of how some, ahem, senior figures on that board would relentlessly jock any Braves prospect. I think that the bloom was off the rose (as far as the board was concerned) by the time we traded him.
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Absolutely true about the relentlessly jocking of any Braves prospect! Shanks led this chorus, and it was even moreso if the Braves prospect happened to be Georgia-born/resident and a grown up a Braves fan. This strategy was successful with McCann (as Zito alluded) and Wainwright. Not so much for Brandon Jones and Jonathan Schuerholz.

Marte was just an example. My one caution was that weight/conditioning could eventually be an issue. Somebody pointed out a hole in his swing. This was while he was still in AAA, and still in good graces.

We could go through any number of names, who've passed through. No matter how reliable anybody might think a specific approach is to evaluating future major league talent, there is no sure fire method. Let me share a few other names, who've come and gone through the system and were once big names in the minors.

Bruce Chen - had lengthy career, which is respectable enough but was touted for staff ace level
George Lombard - at least projected to be above average OFer
Wilson Betemit - greatness was expected from the time of him starting A-ball, he had an OK career but fell way short of expectations

Granted, these were from the early days of everybody having internet access...probably a good thing too that there weren't those types of debates. Even better before that with Justice having spent 3 years at Richmond, including substantial dips and eventually becoming an All Star, marrying a Hollywood starlit and being a WS hero. Fangraphs could not have written that script.

On the other side, if somebody could've shown me how successful DeRosa would become, that would've really been impressive. When he was at Richmond, there little indication that he'd be more than a major league backup.



Julio3000 said:
So why not just consider TLS in a vacuum, without all of these associations? I think that his MiLB track record and a sheaf of scouting reports all put his floor and ceiling in about the same place. I trust my eyes, but I don't flatter myself to think that my watching a few ballgames is going to add that much to the conversation.
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Maybe he'll be OK. He's gone though. It was always my perception that his 'upside,' without whatever his ceiling might be, was exaggerated because of Uggla. An OP even said as much in another post. So, there didn't seem reason to get caught up in the hype for someone, who barely been discussed before the end of the 2013 season, if at all.

In terms of excitement, getting worked up about a Braves prospect doesn't rank up there with Sid's slide in terms of getting me to jump up out of my seat. So will have to defer to the zealots.
 
Perfect Cell said:
Are we really doing the "x group of people wet themselves over y player and y player was bad" thing? Cause theres plenty of that type of stuff to go around for statheads and scouties.
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You were chief among those who fed into it. The thought never occurred that it was possible to use both approaches. Schuerholz said so in his book that they use both.

Perfect Cell said:
Plenty of scouties wet themselves over Ryan Langehans. Beating dead horses doesnt make the 2015 Braves any better.
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Langerhans flashed good leather then and it did carry on with his time in the majors. Other than that, your recollection must be better than mine about expecting anything other than above average defense. Maybe he could run too? Memory's fuzzy.

Will at least give credit to people who actually go to games and offer honest and thoughtful appraisals, as compared to those who are online all day long with no active social lives.
 
zitothebrave said:
I think you're confusing being upset about what happened to KJ (being cut, even being benched for Prado) with people wetting themselves. Your posting history shows more than a litter tendency to rewrite history.
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It reached its apex with "Utley lite." Kelly was never going to be in the same galaxy as Utley who was elite.
 
Knucksie said:
You were chief among those who fed into it. The thought never occurred that it was possible to use both approaches. Schuerholz said so in his book that they use both.

Langerhans flashed good leather then and it did carry on with his time in the majors. Other than that, your recollection must be better than mind, about expecting anything other than above average defense. Maybe he could run too? Memory's fuzzy.

Will at least give credit to people who actually go to games and offer honest and thoughtful appraisals, as compared to those who are online all day long with no active social lives.
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the no active social life stereotype is one i havent heard in a while
 
Gosh darn it you dont say. Guess my collection of Kelly Johnson rookie cards arent gonna be worth thousands of dollars then right?
 
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