What a joke of a network and a shameful performance by the anchor...

[Julio3000]

Haven't read it yet - it's still a new release and I'm working my way thru three other books now. But that said, my friend here gives pretty much what I'll likely think when I do read it.

Link

Interested in his inflating his credentials? Try this:

Link

I can't really comment on the first article's commentary on the book. Seems reasonable and tracks with the reviews I've read, in general. I'm a little distracted by the reference to Fareed Zakaria and Mehmet Oz. What's he saying? Are those guys affirmative action hires? Trophies of the West's romanticization of Eastern mystery?

The author seems to be reducing all three of them to the qualities of being telegenic and brown. Kind of a shallow take.

Gives them no doubt a certain amount of glee.

Something like the glee derived from the relentless pimping of any Muslim apostate in rw media circles, no?

 

[BedellBrave]

I can't really comment on the first article's commentary on the book. Seems reasonable and tracks with the reviews I've read, in general. I'm a little distracted by the reference to Fareed Zakaria and Mehmet Oz. What's he saying? Are those guys affirmative action hires? Trophies of the West's romanticization of Eastern mystery?

The author seems to be reducing all three of them to the qualities of being telegenic and brown. Kind of a shallow take.

Gives them no doubt a certain amount of glee.

Something like the glee derived from the relentless pimping of any Muslim apostate in rw media circles, no?

As to Muslim apostates - I guess, though I can't remember too many of those sorts of stories. If you could point some out for me I'd be grateful. If they are relentless then I'd of thought I could remember a few of them.

I can ask Bill if you'd like. I think it rather obvious that for much of the media being good-looking is a plus (poor Greta). I also think that for much of the mainstream media there would be a desire to have telegenic and brown and Muslim "experts" (i.e., popularizers) - seems reasonable as well. You don't think so? I mean with the anti-Muslim views that many in the media assume are rampant in the US, don't you think they want to present such telegenic and brown and Muslim and likable and talented and smart folk - and do so frequently? Again, it seems like a no-brainer.

 

[BedellBrave]

And by the way, doesn't Bill answer your question?

"...What all this says about America is doubtless complicated and difficult to discern. It could simply be evidence of the increasing pluralism of America, but I suspect that more is involved. Certainly the Middle East has figured prominently in American foreign policy and cultural concerns since the 1960s, and the old fascination with exotic matters eastern and “oriental” may play a role. Ex Oriente Lux! Islam poses the greatest contemporary religious challenge to the West, and people are understandably curious about it. Doubtless the fact that all three are effective on television is significant here as well.

It seems to me that Aslan is particularly well-positioned to take advantage of the Zeitgeist. Not only was he born a Muslim, but as a teenager he converted to Evangelical Christianity and was a fervent evangelist for his adopted faith before returning to Islam. As Aslan himself put it in Time:

When I was 15 years old, I heard the Gospel for the first time and gave my life to Christ and began preaching the Gospel for the next five years to everyone, including my family. . . . I had a pretty good conversion rate. My mother is still a Christian. I now rely upon the symbols and metaphors of Islam.
Thus he is himself a metaphor for a pluralistic and post-Christian American culture."

 

[zitothebrave]

Post-Christian America. Ha

 

[BedellBrave]

Sure it is. That's a given. And that doesn't mean there are no Christians, nor that they have no influence.

 

[BedellBrave]

Zito, you might want to read the following:

Link

The term is pretty much standard fare today - and reflects you and what you'd want our society to be fairly well. No?

 

[Julio3000]

As to Muslim apostates - I guess, though I can't remember too many of those sorts of stories. If you could point some out for me I'd be grateful. If they are relentless then I'd of thought I could remember a few of them.

I can ask Bill if you'd like. I think it rather obvious that for much of the media being good-looking is a plus (poor Greta). I also think that for much of the mainstream media there would be a desire to have telegenic and brown and Muslim "experts" (i.e., popularizers) - seems reasonable as well. You don't think so? I mean with the anti-Muslim views that many in the media assume are rampant in the US, don't you think they want to present such telegenic and brown and Muslim and likable and talented and smart folk - and do so frequently? Again, it seems like a no-brainer.

I mean with the anti-Muslim views that many in the media assume are rampant in the US

I can't speak to rampancy in the US, but those views have a reliable venue on Fox and talk radio, and presumably a constituency as well. Disagree?

there would be a desire to have telegenic and brown and Muslim "experts" (i.e., popularizers) - seems reasonable as well.

I think I understand and mostly agree with what you're getting at. I think that there is an ongoing effort to diversify faces and voices in media, and particular post-9/11 emphasis on Muslims. Can this be reductive and silly sometimes? Sure. Should it be cast in a sinister light? I don't think so.

FWIW, I doubt that the rise of Dr. Oz (whom I know zero about beyond the superficial) had anything to do with Muslim heritage. I'm guessing his elevation by the Oprah machine had more to do with his telegenic nature, his ambition, and his accomplishment in his field. Whatever Fareed Zakaria is, he has the c.v. to do the job that he's been hired to do. Do you disagree? Does the blogger disagree? If not, why bring it up?

Again, it seems like a no-brainer.

OK, so this is a relatively non-controversial statement. Why dangle it out there without elaboration, then? Is there a larger point to be made?

As to Muslim apostates - I guess, though I can't remember too many of those sorts of stories. If you could point some out for me I'd be grateful. If they are relentless then I'd of thought I could remember a few of them.

I recall you promoting Ayaan Hirsi Ali pretty regularly on the old board. Wafa Sultan, too, IIRC. If being telegenic and having a Muslim background gets you a TV gig, being a Muslim apostate (and a woman) is a pretty good inside track to an AEI sinecure.

 

[BedellBrave]

I mean with the anti-Muslim views that many in the media assume are rampant in the US

I can't speak to rampancy in the US, but those views have a reliable venue on Fox and talk radio, and presumably a constituency as well. Disagree?

there would be a desire to have telegenic and brown and Muslim "experts" (i.e., popularizers) - seems reasonable as well.

I think I understand and mostly agree with what you're getting at. I think that there is an ongoing effort to diversify faces and voices in media, and particular post-9/11 emphasis on Muslims. Can this be reductive and silly sometimes? Sure. Should it be cast in a sinister light? I don't think so.

FWIW, I doubt that the rise of Dr. Oz (whom I know zero about beyond the superficial) had anything to do with Muslim heritage. I'm guessing his elevation by the Oprah machine had more to do with his telegenic nature, his ambition, and his accomplishment in his field. Whatever Fareed Zakaria is, he has the c.v. to do the job that he's been hired to do. Do you disagree? Does the blogger disagree? If not, why bring it up?

Again, it seems like a no-brainer.

OK, so this is a relatively non-controversial statement. Why dangle it out there without elaboration, then? Is there a larger point to be made?

As to Muslim apostates - I guess, though I can't remember too many of those sorts of stories. If you could point some out for me I'd be grateful. If they are relentless then I'd of thought I could remember a few of them.

I recall you promoting Ayaan Hirsi Ali pretty regularly on the old board. Wafa Sultan, too, IIRC. If being telegenic and having a Muslim background gets you a TV gig, being a Muslim apostate (and a woman) is a pretty good inside track to an AEI sinecure.

Julio, sometimes I think you just like to argue and take unnecessary offense at someone who doesn't have your view...

You remember incorrectly. I barely remember Ayaan Hirsi Ali and wouldn't have pimped her, her being an atheist and all. And for the life of me I can't remember a Wafa Sultan, so I seriously doubt I've relentless posted about him. And anyway, I'm not the right-wing media that you said was gleeful and relentless in their promotion of these apostates.

And again, Evans gave you the answers you are asking about. There's no need to find some sinister motive behind his blog.

 

[zitothebrave]

Zito, you might want to read the following:

Link

The term is pretty much standard fare today - and reflects you and what you'd want our society to be fairly well. No?

That is what I want but we are super far from that. I mean we have money that says "In God We Trust" a pledge of allegiance "one nation, under God" and I could go on.

Maybe the coutnry is faux-Christian, but there is still a healthy chunk of evangelicals who manipulate the laws of the land.

 

[BedellBrave]

That is what I want but we are super far from that. I mean we have money that says "In God We Trust" a pledge of allegiance "one nation, under God" and I could go on.

Maybe the coutnry is faux-Christian, but there is still a healthy chunk of evangelicals who manipulate the laws of the land.

It's what we are. You guys need to get over your Christian boogieman fear. You play it up to be a far greater influence than it is. As more and more elections and polls show we certainly are in an era of declining orthodox Christian influence and to laugh at that truth is well, just silly.

Maybe you are just prey to liberal fear mongers.

 

[Metaphysicist]

Haven't read it yet - it's still a new release and I'm working my way thru three other books now. But that said, my friend here gives pretty much what I'll likely think when I do read it.

Link

But he didn't read it either.

Anyway, it's a pop-religion work, not a scholarly piece of research. I think criticizing him for rehashing other thinkers comes off as a bit exacting.

 

[BedellBrave]

In other words, you are winning, so stop your whining and cheer up!

 

[BedellBrave]

But he didn't read it either.

Anyway, it's a pop-religion work, not a scholarly piece of research. I think criticizing him for rehashing other thinkers comes off as a bit exacting.

Nawwh, I think it helpful because the uninitiated think this is some sexy new thing from an expert in the field. And not exacting when Aslan presented himself and his research the way that he did in the "interview."

 

[BedellBrave]

Dang, this thread is becoming like the good old days!

 

[zitothebrave]

It's what we are. You guys need to get over your Christian boogieman fear. You play it up to be a far greater influence than it is. As more and more elections and polls show we certainly are in an era of declining orthodox Christian influence and to laugh at that truth is well, just silly.

Maybe you are just prey to liberal fear mongers.

It's not Christians that scare me, but any organized religion. Christians, Muslims, ***s, etc. Give a relgion enough power and they can destroy anything they want to.

 

[Julio3000]

Julio, sometimes I think you just like to argue and take unnecessary offense at someone who doesn't have your view...

You remember incorrectly. I barely remember Ayaan Hirsi Ali and wouldn't have pimped her, her being an atheist and all. And for the life of me I can't remember a Wafa Sultan, so I seriously doubt I've relentless posted about him. And anyway, I'm not the right-wing media that you said was gleeful and relentless in their promotion of these apostates.

And again, Evans gave you the answers you are asking about. There's no need to find some sinister motive behind his blog.

You remember incorrectly.

I'm pretty sure I don't. For a while in the old board you were fairly regularly linking to coverage of folks who were doing the anti-Islam circuit. Orianna Fallaci was another one (though not a muslim apostate), although you disclaimed some of her other politics and, like Ali, her atheism.

Wafa Sultan is a woman, and I specifically remember your linking to and cheerleading for her. Something like "Go Wafa Sultan!," with the name hotlinked.

So I'm pretty sure you did, but I could certainly be mistaken. I'm fallible, but I have a reeaaaallly good memory.

Evans gave you the answers you are asking about

Is Fareed Zakaria an affirmative action hire? Is Mehmet Oz a celebrity because of his heritage? Those are the implications. If they're not, then you and the blogger are saying "dog bites man," and I don't get it.

So, it's at best dismissive. If he wants to say that Reza Aslan's scholarship is meh, that's fine. He's better qualified to judge. But in connecting him to the other two guys, he seems to be saying something else. If that something is not viewed as problematic, I don't understand why he wrote it, or you linked it.

 

[jpx7]

Nawwh, I think it helpful because the uninitiated think this is some sexy new thing from an expert in the field. And not exacting when Aslan presented himself and his research the way that he did in the "interview."

I haven't read Aslan, so I'm stealing this gloss from someone I know from the University who's more acquainted, but most scholars in Near Eastern and Religious Studies fields seem to find him to be a "B- scholar with A+ marketing." Nonetheless: those are the sorts of academics who almost always sell books in large volume and find themselves doing cable-news interviews, so I'm not sure there's much utility bemoaning that "the uninitiated think this is some sexy new thing from an expert in the field" because that's pretty much par for the course.

 

[yeezus]

Post-christian America?
*** people can't get married, and people can't get abortions because of what people think the Bible says. Those two things come directly from religion.
When a non-christian has even a remote shot at president, then we'll be getting somewhere. I don't care personally if a president is christian or non-christian, but the fact that even a great candidate who's non-christian would have zero shot shows we are far from "post-christian" america.

 

[Julio3000]

I haven't read Aslan, so I'm stealing this gloss from someone I know from the University who's more acquainted, but most scholars in Near Eastern and Religious Studies fields seem to find him to be a "B- scholar with A+ marketing." Nonetheless: those are the sorts of academics who almost always sell books in large volume and find themselves doing cable-news interviews, so I'm not sure there's much utility bemoaning that "the uninitiated think this is some sexy new thing from an expert in the field" because that's pretty much par for the course.

^ Yep. ^

 

[BedellBrave]

It's not Christians that scare me, but any organized religion. Christians, Muslims, ***s, etc. Give a relgion enough power and they can destroy anything they want to.

Give the person who doesn't think he's religious enough power and he can destroy anything he wants.....