5/3/15 Reds @ Braves 1:35 PM

thethe said:
What other catcher options are reasonable if AJ is traded soon?
Click to expand...

Despite his hot start, I don't see AJ bringing much in a trade. He has a bad reputation as you know, that hurts plus no good team wants him starting because they know he is bad defensively. His problem has never been hitting so much, it's everything else.
 
Braves1976 said:
Despite his hot start, I don't see AJ bringing much in a trade. He has a bad reputation as you know, that hurts plus no good team wants him starting because they know he is bad defensively. His problem has never been hitting so much, it's everything else.
Click to expand...

So it can be to an AL team that is looking for a guy who can get 50% of the DH AB's and 10% of the cather AB's. Not a bad guy to have on your bench. Just looking to get a lottery ticket.
 
thethe said:
So it can be to an AL team that is looking for a guy who can get 50% of the DH AB's and 10% of the cather AB's. Not a bad guy to have on your bench. Just looking to get a lottery ticket.
Click to expand...

I agree with trying to trade him while he's still hot, I just wouldn't expect it to happen before the deadline and if it does I don't expect much of a return.
 
thethe said:
So it can be to an AL team that is looking for a guy who can get 50% of the DH AB's and 10% of the cather AB's. Not a bad guy to have on your bench. Just looking to get a lottery ticket.
Click to expand...

Eh... Do you really want AJ as your DH? He's a good hitter... For a catcher.

He's going to have value, so I have no doubt he will get traded, but it's not going to be for much.
 
Did y'all catch this from MLBTR?: "Twins Rule 5 pick J.R. Graham is here to stay, manager Paul Molitor tells reporters, including Mike Berardino of the Pioneer Press (on Twitter). “He’s going to be here all year,” the manager said. Graham threw two scoreless innings to close out the Twins’ 13-3 beating of the White Sox this afternoon."
 
Braves1976 said:
Did y'all catch this from MLBTR?: "Twins Rule 5 pick J.R. Graham is here to stay, manager Paul Molitor tells reporters, including Mike Berardino of the Pioneer Press (on Twitter). “He’s going to be here all year,” the manager said. Graham threw two scoreless innings to close out the Twins’ 13-3 beating of the White Sox this afternoon."
Click to expand...

I was disappointed when I saw this posted because I like Graham. But he's been pretty mediocre in Minnesota. i had to throw that out there before the Hart pirahnas had a chance to speak.
 
nsacpi said:
It is clear watching the games that AJ is a poor defensive catcher. Worse than Gattis.
Click to expand...

So, any idea where he lost the four defensive runs? Or do we just accept that?

Perhaps the higher ERA for Pierzynski is because the pitcher he was paired with pitched badly? Or the same pitcher pitched well when Bethancourt was catching?

I ask because I've seen Teheran's last three starts and know from observation that Teheran pitched poorly while Pierzynski caught, and Pierzynski had nothing to do with Julio being wild and leaving a bunch of meatballs up. Conversely he had decent to good command with Bethancourt today.

To suggest that delta is Pierzynski's fault would be incorrect, I believe. As usual, I watched the games instead of analyzing the data, so I've left myself open to be a Luddite again.
 
chop2chip said:
I was disappointed when I saw this posted because I like Graham. But he's been pretty mediocre in Minnesota. i had to throw that out there before the Hart pirahnas had a chance to speak.
Click to expand...

In his one "serious" appearance, he got totally lit up. He's been used almost exclusively in mop-up situations. That said, he would have been a better option than Jaime and we could have kept him in Gwinnett.
 
50PoundHead said:
In his one "serious" appearance, he got totally lit up. He's been used almost exclusively in mop-up situations. That said, he would have been a better option than Jaime and we could have kept him in Gwinnett.
Click to expand...

?

He came in down two runs in the eighth with the bases loaded, and, after hitting the first guy, induced a double play ground ball that the SS misplayed. Then he got a strikeout. Then he gave up a hit and a run.

So he could have gotten out of the inning allowing one run, not his own. As it was, he gave up one hit and one earned run. That's not getting lit up.

Having said that, we could have protected him instead of Jaime and let him pitch at Gwinnett.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
So, any idea where he lost the four defensive runs? Or do we just accept that?

Perhaps the higher ERA for Pierzynski is because the pitcher he was paired with pitched badly? Or the same pitcher pitched well when Bethancourt was catching?

I ask because I've seen Teheran's last three starts and know from observation that Teheran pitched poorly while Pierzynski caught, and Pierzynski had nothing to do with Julio being wild and leaving a bunch of meatballs up. Conversely he had decent to good command with Bethancourt today.

To suggest that delta is Pierzynski's fault would be incorrect, I believe. As usual, I watched the games instead of analyzing the data, so I've left myself open to be a Luddite again.
Click to expand...

Since you were kind enough to quote my post, let me point out that it includes the following words: "It is clear watching the games..."

My critique of Pierzynski's defense is based on observing his play (I too occasionally indulge in that sort of Luddite activity). It is interesting to see that we might disagree here, which shows that observation can lead to different conclusions depending upon the observer. Or am I incorrect in inferring from your post that you like AJ's defense.

My main observation with respect to his defense is that he is slow in reacting to balls that bounce away. He seems below average in agility. Also a fair number of catchable balls seem to tick off his glove. Those are my observations from casually watching the games. And yeah his framing seems poor.

What is not present in any of my posts in this thread is any sort of claim that he has cost the team four defensive runs. So I'm going to pass on your request that I address that issue.
 
He also puts out a terrible LATE target nearly every pitch. I'm sure that's why some of the pitchers are wilder when throwing to him.
 
nsacpi said:
Since you were kind enough to quote my post, let me point out that it includes the following words: "It is clear watching the games..."

My critique of Pierzynski's defense is based on observing his play (I too occasionally indulge in that sort of Luddite activity). It is interesting to see that we might disagree here, which shows that observation can lead to different conclusions depending upon the observer. Or am I incorrect in inferring from your post that you like AJ's defense.

My main observation with respect to his defense is that he is slow in reacting to balls that bounce away. He seems below average in agility. Also a fair number of catchable balls seem to tick off his glove. Those are my observations from casually watching the games. And yeah his framing seems poor.
Click to expand...

Hyuk....No, I agree with you, I think his defense is below average.

My issue, as usual, is with the quantification, in particular the -4 DRS. I'm having a hard time squaring his rather obvious defensive issues with the fact that he's been hitting the dog**** out of the ball for a month.

I don't think the lousy defense comes close to eclipsing hitting.400 with power, which people quote as gospel after looking at a defensive metric system.

Hitting is the hard part. That's why Tulo makes $25m/yr and AJ has a job at 38. Defense is easier, certainly on a marginal utility scale defense is easier, and when I hear Bethancourt is as valuable or more valuable than AJ at this point in the season it rankles me because I know it's not close to true.

Add to that the difficulty various measuring systems have admitted concerning catcher defense and I'm skeptical. Then I see that part of that conclusion is drawn with results of the pitcher throwing to the two different players and I know the derivation of whatever metric they're using, while well-intentioned, is ultimately crap.

Jonathan Lucroy is a fine catcher, offensively and defensively. But now somebody has integrated framing into their measurement and he's worth 7.2 WAR. Using your $8m/WAR rule of thumb that's $65m or so. And while I agree Lucroy is an excellent catcher, I disagree with these crude and short measurements that some are hanging their hats on.

Yknow?

It bugs me. It's quasi science. Or misused and misinterpreted statistical science.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Hyuk....No, I agree with you, I think his defense is below average.

My issue, as usual, is with the quantification, in particular the -4 DRS. I'm having a hard time squaring his rather obvious defensive issues with the fact that he's been hitting the dog**** out of the ball for a month.

I don't think the lousy defense comes close to eclipsing hitting.400 with power, which people quote as gospel after looking at a defensive metric system.

Hitting is the hard part. That's why Tulo makes $25m/yr and AJ has a job at 38. Defense is easier, certainly on a marginal utility scale defense is easier, and when I hear Bethancourt is as valuable or more valuable than AJ at this point in the season it rankles me because I know it's not close to true.

Add to that the difficulty various measuring systems have admitted concerning catcher defense and I'm skeptical. Then I see that part of that conclusion is drawn with results of the pitcher throwing to the two different players and I know the derivation of whatever metric they're using, while well-intentioned, is ultimately crap.

Jonathan Lucroy is a fine catcher, offensively and defensively. But now somebody has integrated framing into their measurement and he's worth 7.2 WAR. Using your $8m/WAR rule of thumb that's $65m or so. And while I agree Lucroy is an excellent catcher, I disagree with these crude and short measurements that some are hanging their hats on.

Yknow?

It bugs me. It's quasi science. Or misused and misinterpreted statistical science.
Click to expand...

Well this reminds me of a conversation I had with someone about how economic policy affects the number of jobs. The person I was talking to asked for "proof" that fiscal stimulus had increased the number of jobs. He wanted me to show him an actual job that had been created and claimed he only believed in things he could see rather than estimates. Well I got annoyed at his obtuseness. I knew he was a religious guy and asked him if he believed in God. He said yes. And I asked him if he had ever seen God. Anyhow afterwards I regretted reacting that way toward him and apologized. I will say that "estimates", even inexact ones, are often better than just relying upon your eyes in a lot of situations.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
?

He came in down two runs in the eighth with the bases loaded, and, after hitting the first guy, induced a double play ground ball that the SS misplayed. Then he got a strikeout. Then he gave up a hit and a run.

So he could have gotten out of the inning allowing one run, not his own. As it was, he gave up one hit and one earned run. That's not getting lit up.

Having said that, we could have protected him instead of Jaime and let him pitch at Gwinnett.
Click to expand...

I watched the game. He stunk. Hit the first guy he faced. Twins yanked him when it was obvious he was on the verge of spinning out of control. 24 pitches, 13 strikes.
 
nsacpi said:
They should have taken Martin.
Click to expand...

Actually, the Twins drafted Martin at some point. It was frankly out of character for the Twins to draft Graham over Martin, given that Martin fits their profile a bit more closely.

Graham could be fine and I think he was a better option to protect than some of the guys they protected, but I wonder if he'd would have been a substantial improvement over what we've had out there to this point. With the DH, AL teams have a huge advantage with Rule 5 picks. Twins stashed Johan Santana way back when and seem to be doing the same thing with Graham. There are a lot of dead innings in a season for the 12th guy out of the bullpen to absorb. Same thing with fringe position players. You don't have as much of a need for PHs in the AL with the pitcher not hitting, so you can basically have a 25th guy who guards the water cooler from Chris Johnson clones.
 
50PoundHead said:
Actually, the Twins drafted Martin at some point. It was frankly out of character for the Twins to draft Graham over Martin, given that Martin fits their profile a bit more closely.

Graham could be fine and I think he was a better option to protect than some of the guys they protected, but I wonder if he'd would have been a substantial improvement over what we've had out there to this point. With the DH, AL teams have a huge advantage with Rule 5 picks. Twins stashed Johan Santana way back when and seem to be doing the same thing with Graham. There are a lot of dead innings in a season for the 12th guy out of the bullpen to absorb. Same thing with fringe position players. You don't have as much of a need for PHs in the AL with the pitcher not hitting, so you can basically have a 25th guy who guards the water cooler from Chris Johnson clones.
Click to expand...

I think they preferred Graham due to his fastball velocity. Martin has always had a decent strikeout rate in the minors, which goes a bit against the Twins history of having a pitching staff with high contact rates.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top