I'm not really blaming McDowell for that. I just find it funny that the hated Leo had great pitcher performance without having many pitchers blow up and when he's gone we now lead the world in Tommy Johns. Personally I think it's a curse by the baseball gods.
SB Nation Profile of Leo Mazzone
- Thread starter MadduxFanII
- Start date
I'm not really blaming McDowell for that. I just find it funny that the hated Leo had great pitcher performance without having many pitchers blow up and when he's gone we now lead the world in Tommy Johns. Personally I think it's a curse by the baseball gods.
Chipper had an amazing goodbye just like Bobby. It wasn't until he picked the Dodgers to beat us in the NLDS that he shook some people the wrong way.
Glavine shunned us the first time with the Mets but we obviously forgave him and asked him to come back. Now them having him rehab all the way up until the final day when they decided to call up Hanson was kind of messed up. Glavine now tells a revised story that he didn't have anything left in the tank but at the time he was furious with how it went down and so was Bobby I'd imagine. Glavine is now a special assistant to the GM for whatever that means.
Andruw didn't really leave us on bad terms. I think JS knew Andruw was leaving his prime and Andruw had already given us a discount before, so eh was looking to get some money since he knew he was trending downwards also.
Glavine shunned us the first time with the Mets but we obviously forgave him and asked him to come back. Now them having him rehab all the way up until the final day when they decided to call up Hanson was kind of messed up. Glavine now tells a revised story that he didn't have anything left in the tank but at the time he was furious with how it went down and so was Bobby I'd imagine. Glavine is now a special assistant to the GM for whatever that means.
Andruw didn't really leave us on bad terms. I think JS knew Andruw was leaving his prime and Andruw had already given us a discount before, so eh was looking to get some money since he knew he was trending downwards also.
Right off the bat, I would consider Shanks an asshole so his opinion of someone doesn't matter to me.
I'm sure there are plenty of assholes that haven't been ostracized form the organization and it really is sad to see the treatment of Mazzone. He deserves to be honored like Cox, Chipper, etc.
You don't really believe Bowman came up with this stuff on his own and without some loose lips from people inside the org?
Exactly. This idea the Braves are this malicious organization is outrageous. Reporters report what they see and that is what has been done. I'm sure there are leaks in every organization but the Braves are no more than any other.
Surprisingly, the BRaves have been nothing but complimentary about Heyward. They probably still want him to come back.
Or since Bowman is around the organization all the time he reporst on what he sees?
Do you really believe that JS or Hart went up to Bowman and said, "Frank Wren eats babies on the weekends?" do you?
Because they always wanted Heyward to be a Brave but he clearly overvalued himself in an era where defensive stats don't accurately reflect impact on wins and losses. I hope Heyward comes back next year at a rate that is more reflective of his true value to a team and that is not as much as what Freeman makes.
Do you believe it is a coincidence that everyone that is good and leaves the organization is trash?
Everyone? Really?
Just a reminder:
In his book The Baseball Economist, J.C. Bradbury titles a chapter, "How Good is Leo Mazzone?" Using statistical analysis, he analyzes whether Mazzone had a significant impact upon the pitchers that he coached. The sample is all pitchers who have pitched at least one year under Mazzone and one year under a different pitching coach. Bradbury found that Mazzone lowered the ERA of pitchers by an average of 0.64 points, and that after leaving Mazzone, pitchers' ERA increased by an average of 0.78 points. Bradbury believes that such an impact is deserving of Hall of Fame consideration.[3]
ESPN.com lists him number one on the list of "Top 10 Assistant Coaches of All-Time".[1]
In his book The Baseball Economist, J.C. Bradbury titles a chapter, "How Good is Leo Mazzone?" Using statistical analysis, he analyzes whether Mazzone had a significant impact upon the pitchers that he coached. The sample is all pitchers who have pitched at least one year under Mazzone and one year under a different pitching coach. Bradbury found that Mazzone lowered the ERA of pitchers by an average of 0.64 points, and that after leaving Mazzone, pitchers' ERA increased by an average of 0.78 points. Bradbury believes that such an impact is deserving of Hall of Fame consideration.[3]
ESPN.com lists him number one on the list of "Top 10 Assistant Coaches of All-Time".[1]
You do realize that pitching instruction is an organization wide function. Yes, the primary instruction at the major league level is done by the pitching coach but lets also not dimish the impact of having 3 HOFers in their prime had on the remaining pitching staff. You don't think Maddux/Glavine/Smotz taught anything to these other guys?
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
I think Leo was very good (but so were Johnny Sain, Ray Miller, and others) and I think all the Hall of Fame talk is a little inflated. Ray Miller was saying "Work fast. Change speeds. Throw strikes." long before that was Leo's matra. People pull out John Burkett as an example of Leo's magic, but he was brutal in his first season in Atlanta. I think the fact that we didn't have a ton of injured pitches is that only Smoltz and Millwood (and Smoltz did have an arm injury while Leo was coach) were what I would call power pitchers.
As for the Braves dumping on the departed, that pretty much happens in every town.
As for the Braves dumping on the departed, that pretty much happens in every town.
So you think Maddux and company taught John Burkett and Chris Hammond how to pitch? You don't think the unique throwing program and his pitching philosophy had anything to do with it.
I understand that criticizing anything the Braves do would cause you to have a seizure, but this is ridiculous.
If you go back and look at it, Burkett had a lot of improvement from the previous year and still had some bad luck on with the Braves.
The year before he had a 5.62 ERA with a 4.42 FIP. His first year with the Braves, he had a 4.89 ERA and 3.98 FIP. His .351 BABIP (highest of his career) was likely the result of some bad luck (before people even recognized luck was involved in baseball). He was then excellent in year 2 and left for the Red Sox, where he was back to trash.
Hey, its whatever you want to believe. Anything but Leo, right. Druw was a great defender, but how was the infield defense (and catcher defense) as a whole throughout those years? Did Druw and Maddux cause a spike in pitchers strikeout rates?
So Burketts good year with the Braves where he had a .273 BABIP wasn't luck induced at all?
No but how about getting to face a pitcher after he was in a Texas bandbox for a few years? I guess that has nothing to do with it either.