Sherman: Braves offered Heyward 80M after 2013

yeezus said:
they're similar...according to WAR, which gives Heyward a huge bump for his defense. They aren't that similar offensively, and if you wanna add in the 6th full season, which would be this year for Heyward and then Winfield's...oh boy...
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Actually, they aren't similar according to WAR, Jason is much better. They are similar in AVG, OBP and SLG, though.
 
sturg33 said:
Heyward is a career wRC+ of 115... not spectacular - but 15% above average. You guys are acting like he's Christian Bethancourt
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No I'm not. But if you've watched Heyward and haven't seen troubling signs then I don't know what to tell you. He's been trending down in key areas rather than up. He's yet to show overall progress this year (I get it, he was recently injured). At this point, I don't believe we let go of a dynamic player. I was upset when he was traded, but I'm glad we have Shelby instead of him now. And it's safe to say Winfield was a much better offensive player, and for a much longer time.
 
BRule said:
Actually, they aren't similar according to WAR, Jason is much better. They are similar in AVG, OBP and SLG, though.
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LMAO dude stop. Let's see what Jason does the rest of this year and then compare their first 6 full seasons.
I doubt you could find anyone who knows anything about baseball that would agree that Heyward = Winfield. LMAOOOOOO this heyward level ****.
 
yeezus said:
LMAO dude stop. Let's see what Jason does the rest of this year and then compare their first 6 full seasons.
I doubt you could find anyone who knows anything about baseball that would agree that Heyward = Winfield. LMAOOOOOO this heyward level ****.
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Stats are the stats, bro. Scouts thought Heyward would be Winfield, they have been similar....you can spin it however you want, if you thought Heyward was going to be Bonds or whatever all of you thought BUT according to the people that followed him and scouted him....he is who they thought he would be *Denny Green voice* Actually more....since he's been worth 150 mil up to this point in his career.
 
yeezus said:
No I'm not. But if you've watched Heyward and haven't seen troubling signs then I don't know what to tell you. He's been trending down in key areas rather than up. He's yet to show overall progress this year (I get it, he was recently injured). At this point, I don't believe we let go of a dynamic player. I was upset when he was traded, but I'm glad we have Shelby instead of him now. And it's safe to say Winfield was a much better offensive player, and for a much longer time.
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I wouldn't know how to look this up - but I think there are legitimate concerns about Heyward since he got hit in the face. For the smarter folks on the board - is there a way to look at his stats before and after?
 
BRule said:
Stats are the stats, bro. Scouts thought Heyward would be Winfield, they have been similar....you can spin it however you want, if you thought Heyward was going to be Bonds or whatever all of you thought BUT according to the people that followed him and scouted him....he is who they thought he would be *Denny Green voice* Actually more....since he's been worth 150 mil up to this point in his career.
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No, Heyward has not been similar to Winfield offensively, and Winfield had a great, long, productive career whereas Heyward has been trending down. Heyward has a LONG way to go to live up to the Winfield comparison. Winfield almost averaged Jason's peak wRC+, which was during his rookie year and he hasn't touched it since. And that's also including Winfield's seasons when he was over 40 years old. LMAO heyward is notttttttttttt dave winfield.
 
sturg33 said:
I wouldn't know how to look this up - but I think there are legitimate concerns about Heyward since he got hit in the face. For the smarter folks on the board - is there a way to look at his stats before and after?
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I think his power has dropped since. Something to consider in the whole debate.
 
sturg33 said:
I wouldn't know how to look this up - but I think there are legitimate concerns about Heyward since he got hit in the face. For the smarter folks on the board - is there a way to look at his stats before and after?
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I don't disagree that it could have an effect. But that doesn't mean he hasn't regressed.
 
ask any person in baseball if jason heyward = dave winfield and they will slap you in the face for such nonsense. if jason repeats his rookie year multiple times over the next 15 years the case can be made. right now? not even close.
 
yeezus said:
ask any person in baseball if jason heyward = dave winfield and they will slap you in the face for such nonsense. if jason repeats his rookie year multiple times over the next 15 years the case can be made. right now? not even close.
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Winfield was certainly a better hitter - but you can't discount defense altogether.
 
sturg33 said:
Winfield was certainly a better hitter - but you can't discount defense altogether.
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No, you definitely can't and Heyward is a brilliant fielder. I don't think that makes up the large difference in offense though.
 
thethe said:
No, you definitely can't and Heyward is a brilliant fielder. I don't think that makes up the large difference in offense though.
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Well, using the most basic math - Winfield was a career wRC+ of 128 compared to Heyward's 115... that's an 11% difference.

I know nothing of Dave Winfield, but I'd guess Heyward makes that up pretty easily in the field and on the bases
 
sturg33 said:
Well, using the most basic math - Winfield was a career wRC+ of 128 compared to Heyward's 115... that's an 11% difference.

I know nothing of Dave Winfield, but I'd guess Heyward makes that up pretty easily in the field and on the bases
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I dont' think a straight percentage change really captures the difference between the two levels. I think of it more as a bell curve with 100 being the apex and then it slopes down sharply as you get to a higher wRC+.
 
One observation about the trends in Heyward's career. He had a very good 2012 season. And was playing very well in 2013 during the weeks just before he got the jaw broken. I wouldn't underestimate the impact of that on his hitting. It can be something that lingers at the back of a player's mind. It could explain the drop in power.
 
nsacpi said:
One observation about the trends in Heyward's career. He had a very good 2012 season. And was playing very well in 2013 during the weeks just before he got the jaw broken. I wouldn't underestimate the impact of that on his hitting. It can be something that lingers at the back of a player's mind. It could explain the drop in power.
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Heyward had some months afterwards where he flashed power. I think it could be a factor but using that as the sole reason I think is trying to give a cop out right now.
 
thethe said:
Heyward had some months afterwards where he flashed power. I think it could be a factor but using that as the sole reason I think is trying to give a cop out right now.
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I think the injury would matter if he showed a different approach after the injury or couldn't make adjustments because of something about the injury. I think his swing already had a few problems. If the injury changed something that opponents are now exploiting to which he cannot make consistent adjustments, it would show up in performance.

I'm not saying this has happened, but a case can be made that if he is not striding into pitches like he used to because he doesn't want to leave himself open high-and-tight, it would likely affect his power.
 
50PoundHead said:
I think the injury would matter if he showed a different approach after the injury or couldn't make adjustments because of something about the injury. I think his swing already had a few problems. If the injury changed something that opponents are now exploiting to which he cannot make consistent adjustments, it would show up in performance.

I'm not saying this has happened, but a case can be made that if he is not striding into pitches like he used to because he doesn't want to leave himself open high-and-tight, it would likely affect his power.
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It seems to me Heyward does not pull the ball as much since the jaw got broken.

I'm remembering the struggles Dwight Evans had for a while after his beaning. Eventually he was able to put it behind him.
 
yeezus said:
No, Heyward has not been similar to Winfield offensively, and Winfield had a great, long, productive career whereas Heyward has been trending down. Heyward has a LONG way to go to live up to the Winfield comparison. Winfield almost averaged Jason's peak wRC+, which was during his rookie year and he hasn't touched it since. And that's also including Winfield's seasons when he was over 40 years old. LMAO heyward is notttttttttttt dave winfield.
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We are just looking at the first 5 years, champ, maybe you missed that?

Winfield's wOBA - .344
Heyward's wOBA - .342

Winfield's wRC+ - 116
Heyward's wRC+ - 115

Winfield's oWAR - 59.1
Heywards's o WAR - 72.1

Winfields' ISO - .151
Heyward's ISO - .165

Again.......for the first 5 years, Heyward has been just as good as Winfield offensively, you can argue he's actually been better.
 
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