Around Baseball 2015 Edition

sturg33 said:
I'm still amazed at how badly posters want him to fail (insert everyone denying this is the case...)

I guess anything to help further praise the FO
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I want Heyward to fail for the Cardinals badly. Don't care what he does after this season. Who cares if I want him to fail this season? Not sure why that should bother you. You want the front office to fail and I could give two craps about it (insert sturg denial). Makes for fun message boarding.
 
weso1 said:
I want Heyward to fail for the Cardinals badly. Don't care what he does after this season. Who cares if I want him to fail this season? Not sure why that should bother you. You want the front office to fail and I could give two craps about it (insert sturg denial). Makes for fun message boarding.
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Why would you want him to fail? He was a great player for us - great teammate and great in the community. He didn't ask to leave. I hope he does great and gets a huge contract.
 
sturg33 said:
Why would you want him to fail? He was a great player for us - great teammate and great in the community. He didn't ask to leave. I hope he does great and gets a huge contract.
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I believe Weso is a noted Cards hater.

I wouldn't be worried about Heyward's financial security. I think he is going to be quite taken care of.
 
sturg33 said:
Why would you want him to fail? He was a great player for us - great teammate and great in the community. He didn't ask to leave. I hope he does great and gets a huge contract.
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I hate the Cardinals, but more importantly because I'm a fan of the Braves. I want the Braves to do well and make the right decisions. To me it's part of being a fan of the Braves. I was also never in love with Heyward as some of you guys were. Never really had that emotional connection. Just can't get that into RF defense as much as I try to.
 
weso1 said:
I hate the Cardinals, but more importantly because I'm a fan of the Braves. I want the Braves to do well and make the right decisions. To me it's part of being a fan of the Braves. I was also never in love with Heyward as some of you guys were. Never really had that emotional connection. Just can't get that into RF defense as much as I try to.
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Yup. Braves fan first and foremost. Those that are blatantly rooting against the front office are ridiculous.
 
thethe said:
If Heyward would actually sign for a contract that was in line with his true value I would LOVE it for him to come back.
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Note that Heyward has "true value" (meaning we can't pay attention to WAR)... but Jace Peterson has valuable as Justin Upton (bc we CAN pay attention to WAR)

Love it
 
sturg33 said:
Note that Heyward has "true value" (meaning we can't pay attention to WAR)... but Jace Peterson has valuable as Justin Upton (bc we CAN pay attention to WAR)

Love it
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I don't agree with thethe, but I would point out that you play the exact same game as him by saying we would be in first place with Justin Upton even though their difference in WAR is certainly neglible.
 
sturg33 said:
Note that Heyward has "true value" (meaning we can't pay attention to WAR)... but Jace Peterson has valuable as Justin Upton (bc we CAN pay attention to WAR)

Love it
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First off...Heyward was declining as a hitter as you tell from his power numbers. He wanted to get paid as if he were an impact bat along with a defensive stud. he should only get paid for being a defensive stud and a capable bat.
 
chop2chip said:
I don't agree with thethe, but I would point out that you play the exact same game as him by saying we would be in first place with Justin Upton even though their difference in WAR is certainly neglible.
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Well Upton's produced 1.5 WAR in left field - which WAR accounts for... And in my opinion, would be a lot harder to replace than Jace Peterson's 1.1 at 2B. Jace ranks 13th in MLB in WAR at 2b (out of 22 qualified players)... While Upton ranks 3rd in LF (out of 16), and 8th in LF/RF (out of 42)

In other words, Upton is in the top 20% of his position, while Jace is in the top 60%
 
sturg33 said:
Well Upton's produced 1.5 WAR in left field - which WAR accounts for... And in my opinion, would be a lot harder to replace than Jace Peterson's 1.1 at 2B. Jace ranks 13th in MLB in WAR at 2b (out of 22 qualified players)... While Upton ranks 3rd in LF (out of 16), and 8th in LF/RF (out of 42)

In other words, Upton is in the top 20% of his position, while Jace is in the top 60%
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LF... You mean the position you play if you can't play CF or RF, but a little too quick for 1B.

Justin has accounted for 1.5 wins above replacement and Jace has accounted for 1.1 wins above replacement. If you are going to hold thethe accountable for consistency then hold yourself as well.
 
chop2chip said:
LF... You mean the position you play if you can't play CF or RF, but a little too quick for 1B.

Justin has accounted for 1.5 wins above replacement and Jace has accounted for 1.1 wins above replacement. If you are going to hold thethe accountable for consistency then hold yourself as well.
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Jace - statistically speaking, is a bottom half 2nd basemen... In orther words, he is FAR easier to replace.

Justin - statistically speaking, is a top tier LF... In other words, he is very difficult to replace.

To put it in perspective - if Jace played LF, his WAR would be probably in the negatives.
 
sturg33 said:
Jace - statistically speaking, is a bottom half 2nd basemen... In orther words, he is FAR easier to replace.

Justin - statistically speaking, is a top tier LF... In other words, he is very difficult to replace.

To put it in perspective - if Jace played LF, his WAR would be probably in the negatives.
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And if Jason Heyward played 1B his war wouldn't be so good. There is a reason for positional adjustments.

Being able to play a position is valuable. The purpose behind WAR, I thought, was to account for that.
 
chop2chip said:
And if Jason Heyward played 1B his war wouldn't be so good. There is a reason for positional adjustments.

Being able to play a position is valuable. The purpose behind WAR, I thought, was to account for that.
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It does.

What it tells us is that among 2nd basemen... Jace Peterson isn't that good. Among LFers, Justin Upton is elite.
 
sturg33 said:
It does.

What it tells us is that among 2nd basemen... Jace Peterson isn't that good. Among LFers, Justin Upton is elite.
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I would like to say, for the record, I have stated in the past that Justin Upton is a far superior player to Jace. I'm not arguing that.

My point is that you went out of your way to bash thethe (who at times deserves it) for selectively using WAR when it fits his argument. You did the exact same thing. Maybe instead of insulting him that you could explain why WAR doesn't work that way.

I have watched you post for 2 months now about all the reasons the front office has screwed up the rebuild (which at the time of the moves themselves, was a defensible point), but as more and more of the players we got in trades have performed you have continued to dismiss the possibility the FO may have done the right thing. I fully understand that it may all be SSS luck, but your unwillingness to even budge a bit has made it apparent to a lot of people that you have no interest in admitting that you may have been wrong.

I don't think you are rooting for the front office to fail, but I don't blame a single person on this board for accusing you of that.
 
chop2chip said:
I would like to say, for the record, I have stated in the past that Justin Upton is a far superior player to Jace. I'm not arguing that.

My point is that you went out of your way to bash thethe (who at times deserves it) for selectively using WAR when it fits his argument. You did the exact same thing. Maybe instead of insulting him that you could explain why WAR doesn't work that way.

I have watched you post for 2 months now about all the reasons the front office has screwed up the rebuild (which at the time of the moves themselves, was a defensible point), but as more and more of the players we got in trades have performed you have continued to dismiss the possibility the FO may have done the right thing. I fully understand that it may all be SSS luck, but your unwillingness to even budge a bit has made it apparent to a lot of people that you have no interest in admitting that you may have been wrong.

I don't think you are rooting for the front office to fail, but I don't blame a single person on this board for accusing you of that.
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The rebuild seems like it's going fine. The players we acquired are performing well. It really means nothing though until translates on the MLB club. Shelby Miller's great season? That's fine - but it's in a wasted year. We need him to do it in 2017.

But we don't have a team that can compete in 2017 until we get a really good hitter or two. What's clear to me is that we could have still made some moves and still be competitive. For example - hindsight is 20/20... but if we had made the Heyward, Gattis, and Kimbrel trade - but kept Upton and not signed Markakis... I would feel fantastic going into this year and next. We would have cleared money to sign Upton, and we would have stocked the farm. We would have gotten our young pitcher. We would have gotten Folty. We wouldn't have gotten Jace but like I said, he's been below average.

I did not like, and will never like, the FO deciding to tear apart and extremely young and talented team. I hope it works out in 2017... but it could have worked out in 2015
 
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