Around Baseball 2015 Edition

sturg33 said:
The rebuild seems like it's going fine. The players we acquired are performing well. It really means nothing though until translates on the MLB club. Shelby Miller's great season? That's fine - but it's in a wasted year. We need him to do it in 2017.

But we don't have a team that can compete in 2017 until we get a really good hitter or two. What's clear to me is that we could have still made some moves and still be competitive. For example - hindsight is 20/20... but if we had made the Heyward, Gattis, and Kimbrel trade - but kept Upton and not signed Markakis... I would feel fantastic going into this year and next. We would have cleared money to sign Upton, and we would have stocked the farm. We would have gotten our young pitcher. We would have gotten Folty. We wouldn't have gotten Jace but like I said, he's been below average.

I did not like, and will never like, the FO deciding to tear apart and extremely young and talented team. I hope it works out in 2017... but it could have worked out in 2015
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The Kimbrel trade probably doesn't happen without the Justin Upton deal. Once you go down that road for a full rebuild then a closer becomes pointless. If you have Justin Upton those rebuild plans change.

And, you are still not accounting for the fact that Upton needs to sign here long term for that to work after we discarded his brother.
 
chop2chip said:
I would like to say, for the record, I have stated in the past that Justin Upton is a far superior player to Jace. I'm not arguing that.

My point is that you went out of your way to bash thethe (who at times deserves it) for selectively using WAR when it fits his argument. You did the exact same thing. Maybe instead of insulting him that you could explain why WAR doesn't work that way.
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I'm not selectively using anything. thethe comments lacked all context. He says that Jace is equally as valuable as Justin - which is so far from reality it's ridiculous. That's why I pointed out the numbers - that Jace is a below average second basement and Justin is one of the best left fielders. Heyward is an elite RF (not this year), but thethe refuses to accept that. He's quick to make the ridiculous comparison - but again, no context.
 
sturg33 said:
I'm not selectively using anything. thethe comments lacked all context. He says that Jace is equally as valuable as Justin - which is so far from reality it's ridiculous. That's why I pointed out the numbers - that Jace is a below average second basement and Justin is one of the best left fielders. Heyward is an elite RF (not this year), but thethe refuses to accept that. He's quick to make the ridiculous comparison - but again, no context.
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Where did I say "equal"?

Also, Heyward has regressed offensively for the last 3-4 years. My argument was always not to give him a contract that rewards his prior defensive contributions because that in all liklihood is the first skill that will regress.
 
thethe said:
The Kimbrel trade probably doesn't happen without the Justin Upton deal. Once you go down that road for a full rebuild then a closer becomes pointless. If you have Justin Upton those rebuild plans change.

And, you are still not accounting for the fact that Upton needs to sign here long term for that to work after we discarded his brother.
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Then shame on the front office for not recognizing what a valuable trading opportunity that would have been. I didn't like the Kimbrel extension when it happened - I don't believe in spending that much for a closer. But getting rid of all that money - while also upgrading CF - while also getting a good pitching prospect... I would have been furious if that was turned down
 
sturg33 said:
Then shame on the front office for not recognizing what a valuable trading opportunity that would have been. I didn't like the Kimbrel extension when it happened - I don't believe in spending that much for a closer. But getting rid of all that money - while also upgrading CF - while also getting a good pitching prospect... I would have been furious if that was turned down
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We would have never known it was turned down in that scenario. You don't trade one of the best closers in baseball if you are trying to win it all. They capitalized on their current situation and an overzealous GM.
 
sturg33 said:
Jace - statistically speaking, is a bottom half 2nd basemen... In orther words, he is FAR easier to replace.

Justin - statistically speaking, is a top tier LF... In other words, he is very difficult to replace.

To put it in perspective - if Jace played LF, his WAR would be probably in the negatives.
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I agree with your general point, but Jace is actually technically in the top half of second basemen if he is 12th in baseball. There are 30 teams. I'm not sure your last sentence is correct either if you took his defense and moved it over to LF. Also, I think Jace's offensive WAR would be a bit higher if his manager let him run a bit more.
 
thethe said:
Where did I say "equal"?

Also, Heyward has regressed offensively for the last 3-4 years. My argument was always not to give him a contract that rewards his prior defensive contributions because that in all liklihood is the first skill that will regress.
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thethe said:
Jace has provided comparable value to the Braves this year that Upton has to the Padres. Not as much obviously but we also got a potential #2 starting pitcher and our starting CF next year with potentially an impact LF down the road. That is nailing a trade.
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Don't use semantics
 
How is that semantics. I said comparable but obviously not as much.

Thats pretty clear that I didn't say equal.
 
weso1 said:
I agree with your general point, but Jace is actually technically in the top half of second basemen if he is 12th in baseball. There are 30 teams. I'm not sure your last sentence is correct either if you took his defense and moved it over to LF. Also, I think Jace's offensive WAR would be a bit higher if his manager let him run a bit more.
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There are only 22 qualified second basemen. The other teams are using platoons or have injuries. I wouldn't know how to capture their war as a unit
 
BTW, in half the amount of time Kelly Johnson has a .6 WAR.

So the Braves did a pretty solid job of getting a replacement left fielder.
 
chop2chip said:
I would like to say, for the record, I have stated in the past that Justin Upton is a far superior player to Jace. I'm not arguing that.

My point is that you went out of your way to bash thethe (who at times deserves it) for selectively using WAR when it fits his argument. You did the exact same thing. Maybe instead of insulting him that you could explain why WAR doesn't work that way.

I have watched you post for 2 months now about all the reasons the front office has screwed up the rebuild (which at the time of the moves themselves, was a defensible point), but as more and more of the players we got in trades have performed you have continued to dismiss the possibility the FO may have done the right thing. I fully understand that it may all be SSS luck, but your unwillingness to even budge a bit has made it apparent to a lot of people that you have no interest in admitting that you may have been wrong.

I don't think you are rooting for the front office to fail, but I don't blame a single person on this board for accusing you of that.
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pretty spot on IMO.
 
Thoughts on Cameron Maybin? Legitimate change in approach or still SSS?
Klaw (1:09 PM)

I'm buying. He's had flashes of this before, but wasn't healthy a lot of the past two years.

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I'm buying as well. We need to consider moving him to RF next season when Smith is ready.
 
thethe said:
Thoughts on Cameron Maybin? Legitimate change in approach or still SSS?
Klaw (1:09 PM)

I'm buying. He's had flashes of this before, but wasn't healthy a lot of the past two years.

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I'm buying as well. We need to consider moving him to RF next season when Smith is ready.
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If Maybin is on the team, I think he'll be in CF... that's where his value will be highest
 
sturg33 said:
There are only 22 qualified second basemen. The other teams are using platoons or have injuries. I wouldn't know how to capture their war as a unit
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Or don't have 2B.good enough to give playing time to...

Probably a lot more of that than a rash of 2B injuries... Jmo
 
sturg33 said:
There are only 22 qualified second basemen. The other teams are using platoons or have injuries. I wouldn't know how to capture their war as a unit
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I mean... he's in the top half. Part of his value is the fact that he's young and doesn't get hurt as easily and plays everyday.

Either way you can't argue he's in the bottom half. And really it's better to say that in regards to qualified 2nd basemen he's essentially in the middle since the difference in WAR is basically negligible from 10th to 13th.
 
sturg33 said:
If Maybin is on the team, I think he'll be in CF... that's where his value will be highest
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I think he has the bat to play in RF. Mallex Smith is going to force his way onto the roster. His minor league resume is very impressive.
 
weso1 said:
I mean... he's in the top half. Part of his value is the fact that he's young and doesn't get hurt as easily and plays everyday.

Either way you can't argue he's in the bottom half. And really it's better to say that in regards to qualified 2nd basemen he's essentially in the middle since the difference in WAR is basically negligible from 10th to 13th.
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He's in the bottom half of qualified second basement. And is also ahead of folks like Cano, Walker, Utley, Murphy - which may or may not continue.

But regardless - the overall point is that WAR isn't created equally.
 
sturg33 said:
He's in the bottom half of qualified second basement. And is also ahead of folks like Cano, Walker, Utley, Murphy - which may or may not continue.

But regardless - the overall point is that WAR isn't created equally.
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Ok Mr. Stubborn.
 
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