Nikki Haley To Call For Confederate Flag To Be Removed From South Carolina Capitol:

nothing wrong - just the way our history has been since the Continental Congress . Biblical times and before
People don't cede territory, real or imagined, without putting up a fight. .

Isn't that how / why this flag made a comeback during CivilRights

It's how I understand why Sturg bitches about having to pay 79% ( or is it 110% ???/ ). He is keeping the tradition alive
doesn't want to give up free health care
 
Runnin said:
You will someday when you grow up.

Hang on to that sadness. It will become healthy cynicism.
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Sounds akin to bending over and taking it.

(Although I am more much cynical than I let on, trust me -- I just like going at 57 because he's a worthy sparring partner).
 
Julio3000 said:
Why groupthink?
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I guess it goes back a bit to my comments about this not being a very genuine measure.

You have these people (Haley, Graham, Sanford, about 100 members of the legislature) who have fought for this flag, spinning these elaborate tales about how the Confederacy wasn't about slavery and about heritage -- for years, my entire life -- all of a sudden doing a complete 360. Coming from that perspective -- irrespective of that single right/wrong component to all of this -- I just have to kind of scratch my head. Are they just realizing what the flag actually stands for? To that end, is this going to represent the hallmark of our efforts to repair the major problems with race in our communities?

I just get the feeling that the flag is the orgasm and everything else is going to be a nice little refractory period.
 
Hawk said:
I guess it goes back a bit to my comments about this not being a very genuine measure.

You have these people (Haley, Graham, Sanford, about 100 members of the legislature) who have fought for this flag, spinning these elaborate tales about how the Confederacy wasn't about slavery and about heritage -- for years, my entire life -- all of a sudden doing a complete 360. Coming from that perspective -- irrespective of that single right/wrong component to all of this -- I just have to kind of scratch my head. Are they just realizing what the flag actually stands for? To that end, is this going to be the end of our efforts to repair the major problems with race in our communities?

I just get the feeling that the flag is the orgasm and everything else is going to be a nice little refractory period.
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Well, I don't necessarily disagree with the question of what this means vs. the larger race-relations picture, and I also agree that it's puzzling to see some people so abruptly flipping the script. I'm not sure if I see groupthink as much as an amalgam of opportunism, running scared, and taking advantage of some political cover to right an embarrassing wrong. Common ground has been found in less noble places.

This has been a sore point and a pet issue for me for much of my adult life, so I'm glad to see a chance to have the right thing done, whatever the motivations.

It is strange, though, to see some of the about-faces. I think it's a measure of just how conservative and (in many places) backward-looking the Republican primary electorate is. At no point in time was there any percentage in doing anything other than toeing the orthodox line. I doubt that any of the pols with national profile (Haley, Graham, Sanford . . . well, I dunno about Sanford) ever gave a **** about the flag, but they certainly gave a **** about getting elected. And say what you will about that trio, but they are not hidebound, retrograde good-ol-boys (or girls).
 
Julio3000 said:
I'm not sure if I see groupthink as much as an amalgam of opportunism, running scared, and taking advantage of some political cover to right an embarrassing wrong. Common ground has been found in less noble places.
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The aspect of groupthink I feel like I'm seeing here is much more the dysfunctional than the irrational. Supposing the flag does indeed come down, as it appears likely - where does it go? Surely not to the State Museum in Columbia. Hopefully not down here. What about the Confederate memorial housed underneath it (on the Capitol grounds)? Will that be razed? After all, isn't that too a glorification of the war sponsored by the state?

Does the haste in which all of this is transpiring belittle the significance of the event itself? The Post and Courier rushing to poll the legislature on their vote, today, but completely ignoring how many voted in the past?

What has really changed?

I dislike that the Governor is suddenly receiving VP talk in the national media because of her opportunism during this tragedy. FFS she's been in office for two terms and hasn't whispered a word about her suddenly irrefutable convictions until today. Graham has been a Senator for longer, nothing from him before except defenses. Sanford was a Congressman, Governor, and then a Congressman again. As of last week he was still defending it!

Don't get me started on Joe Riley. He's been Mayor of Charleston for over 3 decades and touts himself as a legendary race reformer (often mentioning the MLK portrait in his office) yet has presided over what is perhaps the country's preeminent example of abhorrent gentrification. There are over half a dozen 100% black housing projects in the metro area, virtually segregated schools, hell, even the bridge that thousands marched across yesterday in 'unity' was built directly in top of low income (black) housing land.

There is a lack of accountability here that sickens me. The man who inspired Roof to hate the system and attempt to start a race war lives 16 miles from Charleston. But he's still walking around, spouting the same vile bull**** and we can't be bothered to address him -- and don't think for a moment that he's a fringe element.

It is strange, though, to see some of the about-faces. I think it's a measure of just how conservative and (in many places) backward-looking the Republican primary electorate is. At no point in time was there any percentage in doing anything other than toeing the orthodox line. I doubt that any of the pols with national profile (Haley, Graham, Sanford . . . well, I dunno about Sanford) ever gave a **** about the flag, but they certainly gave a **** about getting elected. And say what you will about that trio, but they are not hidebound, retrograde good-ol-boys (or girls).
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Excepting Haley (who has been nothing but a total Republican pawn since taking office [by absolute luck]) I would have to label Sanford and Graham as 'nouveau' GOBs. They've milked the conservative tit nearly dry with decades of laziness and pandering and smarminess. I feel like some of that is going to get swept under the rug now.

I just want meaningful dialogue to evolve here, and maybe it still will.
 
57Brave said:
nothing wrong - just the way our history has been since the Continental Congress . Biblical times and before
People don't cede territory, real or imagined, without putting up a fight. .

Isn't that how / why this flag made a comeback during CivilRights

It's how I understand why Sturg bitches about having to pay 79% ( or is it 110% ???/ ). He is keeping the tradition alive
doesn't want to give up free health care
Click to expand...

LOL...
 
Hawk said:
The aspect of groupthink I feel like I'm seeing here is much more the dysfunctional than the irrational. Supposing the flag does indeed come down, as it appears likely - where does it go? Surely not to the State Museum in Columbia. Hopefully not down here. What about the Confederate memorial housed underneath it (on the Capitol grounds)? Will that be razed? After all, isn't that too a glorification of the war sponsored by the state?

Does the haste in which all of this is transpiring belittle the significance of the event itself? The Post and Courier rushing to poll the legislature on their vote, today, but completely ignoring how many voted in the past?

What has really changed?

I dislike that the Governor is suddenly receiving VP talk in the national media because of her opportunism during this tragedy. FFS she's been in office for two terms and hasn't whispered a word about her suddenly irrefutable convictions until today. Graham has been a Senator for longer, nothing from him before except defenses. Sanford was a Congressman, Governor, and then a Congressman again. As of last week he was still defending it!

Don't get me started on Joe Riley. He's been Mayor of Charleston for over 3 decades and touts himself as a legendary race reformer (often mentioning the MLK portrait in his office) yet has presided over what is perhaps the country's preeminent example of abhorrent gentrification. There are over half a dozen 100% black housing projects in the metro area, virtually segregated schools, hell, even the bridge that thousands marched across yesterday in 'unity' was built directly in top of low income (black) housing land.

There is a lack of accountability here that sickens me. The man who inspired Roof to hate the system and attempt to start a race war lives 16 miles from Charleston. But he's still walking around, spouting the same vile bull**** and we can't be bothered to address him -- and don't think for a moment that he's a fringe element.

Excepting Haley (who has been nothing but a total Republican pawn since taking office [by absolute luck]) I would have to label Sanford and Graham as 'nouveau' GOBs. They've milked the conservative tit nearly dry with decades of laziness and pandering and smarminess. I feel like some of that is going to get swept under the rug now.

I just want meaningful dialogue to evolve here, and maybe it still will.
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Well, amen to that. And I appreciate your reminders that this is not THE issue, this week or ever.

I agree with your assessment of Graham and Sanford, but my point was that they are not good-ol-boys in the mold of classic SC politics, who use race-baiting to get elected and (where I'm from) cuddle up to the same LoS and CCC mouthbreathers who were the very reason that the flag was on the statehouse dome until 15 years ago. I offered my take on Haley earlier—she'll do whatever it takes to be elevated by the national party.

There is a lack of accountability here that sickens me. The man who inspired Roof to hate the system and attempt to start a race war lives 16 miles from Charleston. But he's still walking around, spouting the same vile bull**** and we can't be bothered to address him -- and don't think for a moment that he's a fringe element.

Well, you're preaching to the choir here, and you're correct in your assessment of the mainstream cred those people and their fellow-travelers get. During the last few racial controversies that have bubbled up here in the Upstate, those guys have been snuggled by local politicians and treated as stakeholders with a legitimate voice, rather than shunned and shamed as toxic, racist trolls. (As an aside, St. Nikki nominated a CCC board member to a cabinet position . . . anti-immigrant rhetoric works up here just as well as classic race-baiting). Anyway, that's where accountability starts, as far as I'm concerned. That crowd should be anathema to decent people, regardless of political philosophy or party affiliation.

I appreciate the inclination to follow a gesture with pointed, constructive dialogue. I hope it happens.
 
It's hard to believe that this issue seems to have finally reached a critical mass. Walmart and Amazon have pulled the flag from their shelves. Others states are bringing up the issue. Hard to believe it will last but for now it's "one step forward".

The flag was ubiquitous growing up and I thought it looked cool before I knew what it was. Now with a better view of history it's almost equal with the swastika.
 
Runnin said:
It's hard to believe that this issue seems to have finally reached a critical mass. Walmart and Amazon have pulled the flag from their shelves. Others states are bringing up the issue. Hard to believe it will last but for now it's "one step forward".

The flag was ubiquitous growing up and I thought it looked cool before I knew what it was. Now with a better view of history it's almost equal with the swastika.
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its good to see this symbol of racism dealt with

i worry it's taking away from the bigger issue of gun control however
 
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