Jeb Bush: People Need to Work Longer Hours...

[thethe]

The merits of our own productivity/leisure ratios notwithstanding, do you really want to exist in a society wherein "productivity" is the ultimate and totalizing end? Do you not think we should striving for a society wherein all folks have some (we'll leave quibbling over the exact amount for now) leisure time/space in order to cultivate interests outside of their capitally "productive" selves?

No, we must all make our masters more money so they can find a way to suck more out of us and ultimately send our jobs overseas.

 

[sturg33]

Again

Without context... I'd guess that productivity is way up because of technology... not because everyone's working harder or are smarter... Looks like it went up during the dot com boom... shocker

 

[sturg33]

No because you can't just completely change the workforce overnight like that. No one is going to apply if they make drastic changes like that. They have to slowly get people used to a lower quality life and then over time drop the wages and raise the hours like they are doing now.

They are squeezing every ounce of money out of companies right now and people are fed up. People are getting hired to do job A at less than what the previous worker for job A got paid. The people who are working jobs B and C get laid off and now the new, lower paid employee, has to do jobs A, B and C for no extra compensation and no overtime. If this person doesn't work extra to complete the jobs of 3 people they are basically made to feel like they are lazy. Everything is being consolidated to where you're doing more work for less pay, while the CEO is making record profits. It's a slow process but eventually we will be exactly where you stated.

Well woman supposedly have been making less for centuries... shouldn't they be the dominant gender in the workforce today?

 

[sturg33]

Tesla is a great example of a company that's doing things the right way. Let's put a ton of pressure on the politicians who are protecting other 'American' companies by attempting to derail Musk's ambitions and business model.

Unfortunately, Tesla doesn't make any profits

 

[sturg33]

I agree with your approach to righting the ship and my approach wasn't just to fill the pockets of American's with more money. The jobs need to be here on our soil, made by our hands for an appropriate wage. The CEO/Owner has a right to be rich but does he really need to be so rich that his employees are basically enslaved? You'll never see changes there because people are too busy either not caring or they are brainwashed like sturg into defending the very thing that holds them back. I partially do my part by spending the extra few dollars to buy made in the USA. I drive an old car that was built here and buy original American made parts. But once that money leaves my hand, it most likely ends up in a Walmart cash register while that person buys some poorly made chinese garbage with it.

I'm so brainwashed because I understand why companies try to reduce costs?

Of course they try to reduce costs. That's what any good company will do.

But American companies will pay good money to good workers. I'm no 1%er, but I make really good money and have unlimited PTO and still have enough time to post on this message board.

I'm such a slave!!!

 

[zitothebrave]

Unfortunately, Tesla doesn't make any profits

So? It's the way great companies used to be run. Focus on high quality and developing a brand, not profits. The desire to quickly monetize businesses has lead to our issues that where we are now.

 

[sturg33]

On one hand Sturg says good luck getting corps to make less money and on the other he implies wages will be inflated Which will result in less money for corps.

Companies are going to pay the least amount of money they can for the production they desire. If companies are saving money in the income taxes, they would be able to afford better talent in the states.

But again - the fact that I'm not making minimum wage kind of slaps your theory in the face doesn't it? How are people making money to live on when these companies are refusing to pay anything?

It must be really tough being one of the richest 1% of people on the planet.

 

[sturg33]

So? It's the way great companies used to be run. Focus on high quality and developing a brand, not profits. The desire to quickly monetize businesses has lead to our issues that where we are now.

You're asking why it's bad for a company not to make any profit?

Sustainability comes to mind

 

[weso1]

Jobs arenot sent overseas to develop positive relationships.

Even if it does, that again only helps the wealthy. The whole system is rigged for the further advancement of consolidation of wealth. We are fed these stories about all the good the wealthy are doing when in fact the total impact on the ledger is a strong negative.

The only reason jobs are sent overseas is to make more profits. That is it.

I didn't say otherwise. Not sure why you even brought it up. But the positive externalites exist. And the diplomatic benefits help us all.

 

[zitothebrave]

You're asking why it's bad for a company not to make any profit?

Sustainability comes to mind

If they weren't rapidly expanding I'd agree with you. If they were say an ice cream stand in town, I'd agree with you. WHen they're a car company expanding and expanding quickly, while working on R&D and a number of other products, profits aren't supposed to be great.

Sales from Tesla in the last 5 years went from 117M to 3.2B

 

[sturg33]

If they weren't rapidly expanding I'd agree with you. If they were say an ice cream stand in town, I'd agree with you. WHen they're a car company expanding and expanding quickly, while working on R&D and a number of other products, profits aren't supposed to be great.

Sales from Tesla in the last 5 years went from 117M to 3.2B

I'm aware - they are able to survive only because of investments.

But to the poster saying they're doing it right... well, they'll eventually have to cut some costs in their model...

 

[zitothebrave]

I'm aware - they are able to survive only because of investments.

But to the poster saying they're doing it right... well, they'll eventually have to cut some costs in their model...

Why do they have to cut costs? Why can't sales exceed costs?

 

[jpx7]

I would love to have more leisure time. I have this many vacation days at my disposal. ..... (0) Productively is a very important issue; more productivity = less hours. I know American workers work more than European counterparts; but what is the ratio of wasting time on the internet in American workers vs. European?

But what are the incentives for greater productivity within a given space of hours? At salaried positions, your point is more germane, because the benefits of efficient work to the worker are more straightforward: you finish what you need to do, you leave the office—and maybe you even receive a monetary bonus (in addition to this leisure bonus) for your efficiency.

But wage-work, at best, doesn't incentivize this sort of efficiency: if it's a job with fixed hours, irrespective of task-completion, then even highly efficient completion just means playing out the string until the whistle (say, by donking around on message-boards—a kind of limited or highly-circumscribed leisure). At worst, wage-work actually disincentivizes high efficiency: if tasks are fixed, but hours are dependent on how long it takes to complete those tasks, it's entirely logical for a worker to ensure that tasks require as much time as is reasonably possible to complete. (And that's not even touching on further carrots, like monetary bonuses for efficient work, which in my experience are not as common in the wage-earning world than in the salaried world—especially outside of commission-earning service-industry jobs, where the expectation of commission, or of tips, is sometimes figured into the wage-rate itself.)

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but I also don't think the compensation-structure in the US is adequately adjusted to render "more productivity = less hours" a fungible reality.

 

[sturg33]

Why do they have to cut costs? Why can't sales exceed costs?

I don't own Tesla stock - so I don't know enough about the company to tell you (I generally avoid negative cash flow companies)

But I'm GUESSING that their operating margins are not positive, and thus no matter the volume in sales, they will still lose money.

But I certainly don't know

 

[thethe]

Companies are going to pay the least amount of money they can for the production they desire. If companies are saving money in the income taxes, they would be able to afford better talent in the states.

But again - the fact that I'm not making minimum wage kind of slaps your theory in the face doesn't it? How are people making money to live on when these companies are refusing to pay anything?

It must be really tough being one of the richest 1% of people on the planet.

If corporate taxes are reduced or eliminated without some sort of penalty for sending jobs overseas then the companies will enjoy the tax savings plus send those jobs overseas and make more money. Like you said, good luck getting companies to make less money.

 

[jpx7]

Unfortunately, Tesla doesn't make any profits

Maybe that's commensurate with "doing things the right way".

 

[weso1]

They just need better training and more education!

Obviously not talking about AA'S peeps, who probably have new jobs now, maybe from one of the tens of thousands of new onshore jobs.

 

[Krgrecw]

I don't own Tesla stock - so I don't know enough about the company to tell you (I generally avoid negative cash flow companies)

But I'm GUESSING that their operating margins are not positive, and thus no matter the volume in sales, they will still lose money.

But I certainly don't know

They're not projecting to turn a profit until 2020. That says a lot about how much they are in a hole. 2020 can become 2021 and then 2022 very easily.

 

[thethe]

They're not projecting to turn a profit until 2020. That says a lot about how much they are in a hole. 2020 can become 2021 and then 2022 very easily.

And yet they've still made their investors loads of money through capital appreciation.

 

[sturg33]

If corporate taxes are reduced or eliminated without some sort of penalty for sending jobs overseas then the companies will enjoy the tax savings plus send those jobs overseas and make more money. Like you said, good luck getting companies to make less money.

If that is the case - why aren't I working for $10 a day.

Moving forward - you have a baseline of earnings. If the government cut the tax rates, businesses would:

1. Invest in human capital (more jobs)
2. Invest in product or operations (more sales growth or cost efficiency)
3. Reward shareholders (more money in hands of Americans)

If you don't believe that corporations are trying to grow their businesses, I don't know what to tell you man.

Why do CEO's make so much money? I don't know. It's probably the market for top talent. In order to get or retain a great leader, you have to pony up to keep him or another business will. It's not that complicated. It's the market we live in.

It's just like sports. You have to pay to get the top talent.