Implications of the Trade

gilesfan said:
I've read 5/100 as a rough gauge for Gordon, but he will be 32 while Heyward will be 26. Heyward is 1 or 1a in terms of 2016 position player free agents.

What type of contract do you think Cespedes gets? He's on par with Heyward offensively, much worse defensively, and 30 years old.
Click to expand...

Cespedes is a better offensive player than Heyward.
 
smootness said:
By definition, it is. There are 30 teams.

And you keep saying, 'Heyward is not actually that good,' without anything to back it up. It's simply an opinion because we've been trained to see a player's value entirely on BA, HR, and RBI.

The difference, offensively, between Heyward and Stanton is 15-20 HR over the course of a full season. BA and OBP are very similar. So what you're saying is that 15-20 ABs sprinkled over the course of a season is far more valuable than Heyward's constant defense and base running.

Stanton is overvalued by many; Heyward is undervalued by many. Why? HR. That's it.
Click to expand...

No, his value is mostly tied up to his defense, once that declines, he's not worth 25-28 mil a year if thats what it costs unless his offense really takes off.
 
sturg mad because people arent slobbering over Heyward, im shocked.

Unless he evolves to a legit 25-30 HR guy, he isnt worth 25-28 mil a year, thats middle of the bat money. I dont care how good his defense is, that doesnt make him worth that.

If it's all about defense, Simmons is worth that.

And given Heyward is close to FA, he'd be stupid not to test FA with all the big market teams after him, he knows it would have taken an absurd offer to keep him.
 
sturg33 said:
Yes, imo.

I know you think the FO walks on water... but a simple phone call is simply a matter of respect. When Hart said we "assumed" we couldn't afford him, then he lost a lot of credibility.

But I recognize you are incapable of any objective thought, so the comment was more for others on the board
Click to expand...

How do you know they didnt talk to him.

Even still, it would have taken at least 7/180 to re-sign, i dont think Hart wanted to go that high for him.

Given he's 1 year from FA, he probably knew what it would take and went from there.
 
I'm just wondering for the posters who say so and so isn't worth this much. By that do you mean the market won't pay him that much, or he isn't worth it based upon some objective criteria, or not worth it based upon what you feel.
 
nsacpi said:
I'm just wondering for the posters who say so and so isn't worth this much. By that do you mean the market won't pay him that much, or he isn't worth it based upon some objective criteria, or not worth it based upon what you feel.
Click to expand...

I don't see the market valuing Heyward at $25MM.
Markakis got 4/44, so he's objectively worth it then, I take it.
 
Heyward said:
sturg mad because people arent slobbering over Heyward, im shocked.

Unless he evolves to a legit 25-30 HR guy, he isnt worth 25-28 mil a year, thats middle of the bat money. I dont care how good his defense is, that doesnt make him worth that.

If it's all about defense, Simmons is worth that.

And given Heyward is close to FA, he'd be stupid not to test FA with all the big market teams after him, he knows it would have taken an absurd offer to keep him.
Click to expand...

Simmons is nowhere near the offensive player Heyward is.

Heyward's value is not solely in his defense. He is an above-average offensive player; he has very similar offensive value to Cespedes.

Those who believe Heyward is not valuable offensively and is only valuable due to his defense seem to believe this simply because he isn't yet the .300/30 HR guy he was projected to be.

Yes, his defense does provide quite a bit of value, but his offense actually brings more than his defense overall. Heyward is a very, very good all-around player; he is above-average offensively, above-average defensively with above-average base running and an above-average arm. He is the best player on the team with the best record in baseball right now.

He has far more value than some of you want to believe.
 
smootness said:
Those who believe Heyward is not valuable offensively and is only valuable due to his defense seem to believe this simply because he isn't yet the .300/30 HR guy he was projected to be.
Click to expand...

FTR, I absolutely think he's valuable offensively. However, most of his value comes from defense at this point.
 
and it really has little to do with what I "want" to believe. I don't see how he's worth $25MM, like the best players in the game get paid. I just don't see it.
 
yeezus said:
I don't see the market valuing Heyward at $25MM.
Markakis got 4/44, so he's objectively worth it then, I take it.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you're almost certainly wrong.

May not go that way of course. But I would be fairly willing to bet someone will pay him that much, unless he goes to a really long contract then his per year rate will fall down.

Here's the deal, Heyward has a lot of potential and quality results. And he's really young. When we see Ellsbury at 29 for over 20M per year. it's not hard to see Jason signing for mroe at 26. To look for someone comparable to jason, Guys like Heyward don't hit the market often for a reason. Cause they get paid before.

We'd have to look at the "free agent cost" of Freddie and adjust. Freddie was valued at about 20M per year back after 2013. Freddie's FA came a year after Jason and he extended earlier. So If Freddie giving up some contract value is worth about 20M per year in FA at an older age, how is it hard to believe that Jason won't potentially get 25? Also consider who's on the FA market, it's pretty damned terrible. It's Justin, Jason, Cespedes, and Fowler. Fowler isn't very good.
 
yeezus said:
FTR, I absolutely think he's valuable offensively. However, most of his value comes from defense at this point.
Click to expand...

That's just not true. Last year is the only year in his career in which he's been more valuable defensively, and the numbers were almost identical that year as well.
 
smootness said:
That's just not true. Last year is the only year in his career in which he's been more valuable defensively, and the numbers were almost identical that year as well.
Click to expand...

What would his WAR have been last year with average defense? fWAR had him at 5.2. There's no way most of that wasn't from his defense. He would not be top-20 WAR guy last year without great defense.
 
yeezus said:
What would his WAR have been last year with average defense? fWAR had him at 5.2. There's no way most of that wasn't from his defense. He would not be top-20 WAR guy last year without great defense.
Click to expand...

3.3 WAR if he had league average defense last year.
 
I'm starting to come around on the idea of Alex Gordon if we can get him for something like 4/65. Even during a decline he would have plenty of value. Gordon, Zobrist and maybe Daniel Murphy are the only hitters I like out of this FA class.
 
smootness said:
Simmons is nowhere near the offensive player Heyward is.

Heyward's value is not solely in his defense. He is an above-average offensive player; he has very similar offensive value to Cespedes.

Those who believe Heyward is not valuable offensively and is only valuable due to his defense seem to believe this simply because he isn't yet the .300/30 HR guy he was projected to be.

Yes, his defense does provide quite a bit of value, but his offense actually brings more than his defense overall. Heyward is a very, very good all-around player; he is above-average offensively, above-average defensively with above-average base running and an above-average arm. He is the best player on the team with the best record in baseball right now.

He has far more value than some of you want to believe.
Click to expand...

No one said he's not valuable offensively, just cant give someone 25-28 mil a year because hes above average offensively whose MAIN value is defense.

Say if Heyward left the Cards, how much would it impact them next year, they still probably win 90-98 games next year if he did but yeah they'd be screwed without him.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top