Matt Wieters

Carp said:
Decimated? That's a bit much. Wren inherited a farm that featured, Heyward, Teheran, Freeman, Hanson, Schafer, Medlen, Devine, Flowers, Delgado, Locke, and Morton among many others. In fact, one could argue that the major components of Wren's "success" were already in place when he took over.

And I would argue the Tex part deux (which Wren responsible for) was almost as bad as the first, given the hot garbage we got in return for Tex.

But the intention of the 1st post was not to place blame on Wren for the rebuild. Just setting the record straight on what Wren actually accomplished in his 7 years here. Which was 3 playoff appearances. Certainly that isn't horrible, but we were not winning 90 games/yr.
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Braves did average 91 wins from 2009-2013 though. Would of been more without Gonzalez.
 
cajunrevenge said:
We were close to a .500 team until Freeman went down. It sounds like you took GM speak too literally. Rebuilding is a dirty word. It tends to make the fans not want to buy tickets. Hate on him for saying that if you want but its in our best interest as Braves fans that attendance doesnt plummet. With retooling, or rebuilding, a ton of turnover is to be expected. I would say this season represents the tear down phase of rebuilding. During the tear down phase a lot of players get playing time they otherwise wouldnt. Its pretty much throwing **** on the wall and seeing what sticks. We got a good asset out of that in Maybin. I think Hart has always said this was building up to 2017 when the new stadium opens. Not uncommon in baseball. I know he said we would be on the outer edge of contention this year and I dont think that was a lie. Its rare a GM will ever say "Nope, no chance we contend this year" before a season starts. Read between the lines of what a GM says. I think we should atleast give them this offseason to see what kind of moves they make. All our trades up until Olivera were a part of the tearing down process. We are now in the building up phase. I dont know what in the tearing down phase has you so upset. The Melvin trade was a huge win for us. The Heywood trade is a huge win for us. Justin Upton trade isnt so clear cut but trading him was the right move. Maybe its the Olivera trade? If it is I think you have to atleast give it a chance. If Olivera tanks I'll be up in arms along with you but there have been quite a few trades in the last 10 years that we as fans hated that turned out good.
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Which included unsustainable hot streaks from players and insane cluster luck with BABIP. Unless you think Freeman was responsible for that then it was going to stop regardless.
 
thewupk said:
Braves did average 91 wins from 2009-2013 though. Would of been more without Gonzalez.
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Not technically true. Better with a good manager yes, but there is no guarantee we get a good a manger if Fredi is gone. There is about a 95% chance the next manager is hated just as much.
 
thewupk said:
Which included unsustainable hot streaks from players and insane cluster luck with BABIP. Unless you think Freeman was responsible for that then it was going to stop regardless.
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Yeah they were over achieving to start the year and now they are underachieving because they traded several players and are letting players get experience. I mean who even heard of Matt Marksberry, Andrew McKirihan, Jake Brigham and Adonis Garcia before this year? I think you might have unrealistic expectations. No one was going to come in here and turn **** around over night while making minimal changes. I think we could have gone for broke this year and done well but we would have been Astro level bad for the next 5 years.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Not technically true. Better with a good manager yes, but there is no guarantee we get a good a manger if Fredi is gone. There is about a 95% chance the next manager is hated just as much.
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Hated? Sure. Cox was 'hated' for dumb stuff. But there is a like a 10% chance that our next manager is worse.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Yeah they were over achieving to start the year and now they are underachieving because they traded several players and are letting players get experience. I mean who even heard of Matt Marksberry, Andrew McKirihan, Jake Brigham and Adonis Garcia before this year? I think you might have unrealistic expectations. No one was going to come in here and turn **** around over night while making minimal changes. I think we could have gone for broke this year and done well but we would have been Astro level bad for the next 5 years.
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I didn't have unrealistic expectations. I said at the start of the year that 70 wins would be a struggle. I thought our offense would be worse than last years as well. The people who had unrealistic expectations were those that thought our luck at the start of the year was sustainable.
 
So, we'd be looking at:
Smith LF
Olivera 2B
Freeman 1B
Weiters C
Markakis RF
Maybin CF
Peterson 2B
Simba SS

Ain't nobody got time for that lineup.
 
UNCBlue012 said:
So, we'd be looking at:
Smith LF
Olivera 2B
Freeman 1B
Weiters C
Markakis RF
Maybin CF
Peterson 2B
Simba SS

Ain't nobody got time for that lineup.
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Olivera is going to hit behind Freeman.

thewupk said:
I didn't have unrealistic expectations. I said at the start of the year that 70 wins would be a struggle. I thought our offense would be worse than last years as well. The people who had unrealistic expectations were those that thought our luck at the start of the year was sustainable.
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If we hadnt traded players away and Freeman doesnt get hurt we win 70 games easily. Your judging the team based on a time frame after the team said **** it and gave up on the season. Of course they are going to lose a **** ton of games right now.

thewupk said:
Hated? Sure. Cox was 'hated' for dumb stuff. But there is a like a 10% chance that our next manager is worse.
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I wasnt talking about Cox, he got his share of hate but he was protected because of the streak. Every fan base hates their manager. The grass is always greener on that other side though.
 
thewupk said:
Braves did average 91 wins from 2009-2013 though. Would of been more without Gonzalez.
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Well sure if you want to cherry pick. But the reality is that we won 90 games or more 3 times with Wren as GM. Certainly not what I would consider a "standard" of greatness.
 
I don't feel like our main acquisitions will be an offensive player. I feel it will be middle relief and should be as that has been the main wort on this team all year. 2015 has proven serviceable middle relief does not grow on trees. And by serviceable all I am asking for is someone capable of getting outs.
 
UNCBlue012 said:
So, we'd be looking at:
Smith LF
Olivera 2B
Freeman 1B
Weiters C
Markakis RF
Maybin CF
Peterson 2B
Simba SS

Ain't nobody got time for that lineup.
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Depending on the production of Smith and Olivera, it could be quite good. But overall I agree. It isn't super impressive on paper. I think we'll trade for a catcher, to be honest.
 
cajunrevenge said:
If we hadnt traded players away and Freeman doesnt get hurt we win 70 games easily. Your judging the team based on a time frame after the team said **** it and gave up on the season. Of course they are going to lose a **** ton of games right now.
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Who have we traded that wouldn't have made us as bad as we are? Kelly Johnson? He's hitting 221 with the Mets and has a 103 WRC+ on the year. As predicted he's back to being the utility he has been for the last few years. Uribe? He's hitting 192 for the Mets and has a 102 WRC+ on the year. His awesome time with the Braves wasn't going to continue. They are both poor hitters that had brief moments of awesomeness. Expecting that to continue is what lead many on here to think this team was good.
 
Carp said:
Well sure if you want to cherry pick. But the reality is that we won 90 games or more 3 times with Wren as GM. Certainly not what I would consider a "standard" of greatness.
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Not really cherry picking anything. The first two years he was cleaning up JS's mess. For like a 5 year period the Braves had the most wins in the NL. That's fairly impressive.
 
thewupk said:
Not really cherry picking anything. The first two years he was cleaning up JS's mess. For like a 5 year period the Braves had the most wins in the NL. That's fairly impressive.
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What mess exactly? Did you miss the part where he inherited a booming farm system and an increasing payroll? Or how about the part where most of the stars on those teams were players that were acquired before he became GM??

They only mess he was left was a bad rotation. Which he really made little effort to improve the first offseason as GM. A mistake which he over-compensated for the next FA period by spending about 80 million on 3 pitchers.

Sell it whatever way you want, but facts is facts. And we made 3 playoff appearances in 7 years.
 
Carp said:
What mess exactly? Did you miss the part where he inherited a booming farm system and an increasing payroll? Or how about the part where the majority of the stars on those teams were players that were acquired before he became GM??
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Yeah a booming farm system that JS was currently gutting to get veteran players. Let's not act like Wren didn't get major props for not making deals like Hanson and Yunel for Jake Peavy. He pushed the team into a very good spot for a 4-5 year period.
 
thewupk said:
Yeah a booming farm system that JS was currently gutting to get veteran players. Let's not act like Wren didn't get major props for not making deals like Hanson and Yunel for Jake Peavy. He pushed the team into a very good spot for a 4-5 year period.
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No is saying he didn't have some success. But to act like we were a perennial 90 win team under Wren is flat out wrong. We won 90 games or more 3 times.
 
I also don't recall the offer being Hanson and Yunel. I recall the offer being Yunel, Gorkys, Locke, and another pitcher whose name escapes me (may Jo Jo Reyes?).
 
Carp said:
I also don't recall the offer being Hanson and Yunel. I recall the offer being Yunel, Gorkys, Locke, and another pitcher whose name escapes me (may Jo Jo Reyes?).
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It's because Wren refused to put Hanson in the deal. Which is likely why it never got done.
 
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