sturg33
I
A criminal and a socialist. How inspiring
2016 Presidential Primaries [ SUPER TUESDAY | 3-1-'16]
- Thread starter 57Brave
- Start date
A criminal and a socialist. How inspiring
Oklahomahawk
Boras' Client
Without getting into the violent mass murdering aspects of Communism, only the economics side of things, why didn't/doesn't communism work? I'm assuming we can, at least for the most part, agree that it doesn't work. So, why not.
I'd like to hear you guys' 2 cents worth on this.
I'd like to hear you guys' 2 cents worth on this.
57Brave
Well-known member
My first thought is it is a dogma that doesn't take into account the 5 deadly sins
wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.
weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
Lack of incentive and competition. Workers had very little incentive to be productive other than from force. And more importantly anything innovative had to come from one source rather than a conglomerate of competing entities. The whole idea of capitalism is that you have people competing with each other and constantly coming up with better ideas.
Plus just the idea that consumers didn't have choice will eventually lead to rebellion unless you rule them with an iron fist, so you can't really separate the violence and false imprisonment. It's a part of making it work.
Communism would work fine for a country of robots though.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Same reason while capitalism doesn't work the way it's supposed to. Human error.
weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
I don't think that's true. Communism fails largely due to positive human characteristics. The desire to be free, the desire to innovate, the desire to better your life. Capitalism embraces these aspects, not to say that negative human characteristics aren't one of the problems in regards to communism, but I think it's just a terrible system that's doomed to fail no matter what.
And the evidence of this is that communism has consistently failed everywhere, and not just in countries but in states as well. And I'm not being a homer as I think well managed socialist societies can succeed.
Runnin
Well-known member
I believe people inherently need to work and be productive but they want to have some freedom of choice in the matter. They also must feel connected to and invested in a greater goal, not like a nameless, faceless cog in a machine.
The rich and the powerful in America still operate under the feudalistic/hierarchial playbook, but do a good job disguising it. That's what the Confederacy was about (African slaves were just the unfortunate, coincidental victims). After a few good decades following the New Deal and WWII where the middle class expanded, capitalism has again morphed in a cruel monster. The battlefield keeps changing but the game is the same -- amassing wealth and power for the few at the expense of the many. By 2016 the top 1% will supposedly own over half the world's wealth, and it's continually getting worse. By 2020 what will the numbers be?
I believe there's still a middle road to be found that would be better for everybody, even the rich, but first people have to want it. Someday a disaster so great may finally force people to get along, but nah... That will never happen. The last two people on earth will probably kill each other over a scrap of food.
weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
The top 1% own a fed created bubble right now. I'm not really sure exactly what they own. It's more of a promised wealth. It could totally collapse in a week. In fact it almost did and really maybe should have. Maybe that will work out, I don't really know.
I think the socialist left in this country, I'm free to call them that now since they officially support socialist Bernie Sanders, don't want a Union of individual States. They just want a Union. I don't want that. Sorry runnin but I don't see any agreement between us. And I've never really felt the left on this board, or anywhere else are truly interested in any sort of compromise. They just want what they want. You'll just have to keep living your miserable life living in one of the best countries to live in in the world. I promise I'll only kill you at the end of the world if it's a really good meal.
Runnin
Well-known member
I believe there's a very chartable trend at work, but don't have time to look it up now. Here's the current global pie graph from Wiki
Here's the U.S. model:
You're right. I don't care about this. States will always hold their geographic characters but laws are getting more uniform and that seems right. Most of the differences are just states or counties being obstinate about one thing or the other. An adult citizen should be able to buy a beer or marry anywhere within U.S. borders.
Will you at least agree that Andruw Jones was the most graceful CF ever?
Thanks. I'd hate to lose it, miserable at it is.
That would be a lonely meal. "The company makes the feast."
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Sorry weso but you're wrong. We've never had a true communist government. USSR wasn't communist. They were a statist dictatorship. Not very far from say Nazi Germany except in rhetoric only. Communism can't really exist on a national level, and certainly not on a nation the size of the USSR's level because it's not supposed to. It's supposed to be carried out in communities, not controlled by a central government.
But I digress. It fails because of greed and corruption. When you look at the USSR you saw a very unfair system where some lived poorly and barely survived (or died of starvation) and where others lived extremely well. That's not any respectable form of communism as it doesn't create equal access. It has nothing to do with the desire to be free or any other of your attempted high sounding rhetoric.
Capitalism also great fails because there cannot be a free market when market manipulation happens all of the time. Let's look at the Walmart model, come into town with super low prices to kick every local competitor out, then slowly raise them to make bank. That's manipulation. Let's look at the gas companies. They pump it from the ground, they refine it, and own 66% of the gas stations in America. Meaning they basically make money no matter what step of the process they're involved with, and they can keep alternative fuels out of most gas stations. E-85 fuel runs in almost every car. Good luck finding a pump with e-85 in mroe rural parts of America.
Anyway we're not in a capitalist society in any stretch anyway. WE're in some franken capitalist/socialist/oligarchy type of system.
sturg33
I
You don't understand Walmart's model at all. They make like 6% profit margin, one of the lowest in the country. I didn't bother reading much of your other stuff.
We're not at all a capitalist society. If we were, we'd be a heck of a lot better off
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Please note that runnin's chart shows the pre-crash distribution of wealth. Since the crash, the 1% has gained a bit more in terms of overall percentage, but I believe that's a continuation of a trend that has been taking place since the mid-1970s and doesn't have a lot to do with actions taken by the Fed during and after the crash. Further, the flexibility provided by large amounts of disposable income held by the 1% gave them a cushion that many Americans didn't have during the downturn. If there is an upward spike in the percentage held by the 1%, the relatively higher percentage loss in wealth at the lower end of the spectrum contributes to that.
PS--Not to get too simplistic, but under either capitalism or communism, one set of actors--the owners of capital or the state--will call the shots. The advantage of capitalism is that it takes a lot longer for the coalescence of power so there are opportunities for intervention.
PS--Not to get too simplistic, but under either capitalism or communism, one set of actors--the owners of capital or the state--will call the shots. The advantage of capitalism is that it takes a lot longer for the coalescence of power so there are opportunities for intervention.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Well yeah they're a store that sells cheap ****. I understand their model. No store that doesn't move volume can survive on a thin margin, and how did they get to be able to survive on a thin margin? I'll wait for your "answer"
sturg33
I
I actually lied. Their profit margin over the last 5 years is 3.48%. I guess that's bc they keep raising their prices on everything
I work with Walmart on a daily basis. We are a vendor for them. Their model is to drive costs out of everything, most notably their suppliers, so they can lower prices in stores. They are probably the most frugal company I've ever seen.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Again, lets see if we can get to this end point. I'll be waiting for you there.
Walmart is able to survive on their thin margin, because?
sturg33
I
I dunno... tons of reasons. They receive a ton of subsidies and corporate welfare. They have low costs. They have a crap ton of volume. They squeeze their suppliers.
Lots of reasons. what's your point?