Looking ahead to 2016

depley said:
Let us break it down.

Weber looks legit to me, similar in some ways to a Greg Maddux.
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I stopped reading right there because...well...frankly, it completely invalidates any other baseball related opinion you will ever have.

How many times must we watch mediocre pitchers with mediocre stuff have a few decent starts and then turn back to being replacement level before people stop saying stupid stuff like this? It wasn't long ago when folks were pimping Williams Perez as the next great control artist success story...and look how that turned out.

Weber will be lucky to be throwing pitches at the MLB level 2 years from now. He isn't even similar to a competent MLB starting pitcher, much less Greg Freaking Maddux.
 
smootness said:
Bringing up Taveras in evaluating Heyward's impact on this year's team is pointless. Regardless of the reason they had to go get Heyward, they have him on the team this year and they are winning a ton of games.

Bringing up Shelby isn't meaningful, either. They did lose Shelby and even still they're killing it. Heyward, by any measure, is a big part of the reason why.
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In the context of the conversation, it was addressing of the side discussion that he of the unpronounceable name decided to initiate. As for more of the "Heyward is God" banter, you can save your effort and my time, by not bothering to trigger my alerts next time. Having said that, the deceased player in question seemed to have a promising future ahead of him, and the Cards were likely counting on big things from him.
 
Do we really want Heyward? I guess I'd be happy for him to be back, but given that I doubt he'll ever have the power we'd hoped for, he doesn't solve enough given his probable price tag. I'd rather have J-Up to be honest.

Doubt either will happen.
 
Knucksie said:
In the context of the conversation, it was addressing of the side discussion that he of the unpronounceable name decided to initiate. As for more of the "Heyward is God" banter, you can save your effort and my time, by not bothering to trigger my alerts next time. Having said that, the deceased player in question seemed to have a promising future ahead of him, and the Cards were likely counting on big things from him.
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I get that Taveras was really talented, but even if Taveras would have brought the same value Heyward did this year, it doesn't change the discussion at all. You claimed Heyward doesn't improve his team, which is kind of ridiculous. In order to judge that, use either a replacement-level player or an average player as your baseline.

What you're saying would be similar to me saying, 'I don't think Andrew McCutchen really improves his team because if you replaced him with Mike Trout, the Pirates would still be just as good, if not better.'

Jason Heyward has likely been the best player on the best team in baseball this year. If you think for some reason he doesn't improve his team, that's on you. He's not the best player in the league, or even one of the top 5. But he's very, very good.
 
smootness said:
I get that Taveras was really talented, but even if Taveras would have brought the same value Heyward did this year, it doesn't change the discussion at all. You claimed Heyward doesn't improve his team, which is kind of ridiculous. In order to judge that, use either a replacement-level player or an average player as your baseline.

What you're saying would be similar to me saying, 'I don't think Andrew McCutchen really improves his team because if you replaced him with Mike Trout, the Pirates would still be just as good, if not better.'

Jason Heyward has likely been the best player on the best team in baseball this year. If you think for some reason he doesn't improve his team, that's on you. He's not the best player in the league, or even one of the top 5. But he's very, very good.
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I like Heyward, but it's this kind of hyperbole that gets an arched eyebrow from more than a few people. Heyward has brought a lot to the Cardinals. No doubt about that. But I think Matt Carpenter may beg to differ with your assessment. Cards have a nice, balanced team and Heyward is a plus guy on that team. Isn't that good enough for everyone?
 
50PoundHead said:
I like Heyward, but it's this kind of hyperbole that gets an arched eyebrow from more than a few people. Heyward has brought a lot to the Cardinals. No doubt about that. But I think Matt Carpenter may beg to differ with your assessment. Cards have a nice, balanced team and Heyward is a plus guy on that team. Isn't that good enough for everyone?
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Why is it so hard to believe that Heyward has had a better year than Carpenter or any other position player on the Cards? We get it. Some people don't put that much value into defensive or defensive stats. But for those who do it's clear that Heyward has been the teams best player this season.
 
thewupk said:
Why is it so hard to believe that Heyward has had a better year than Carpenter or any other position player on the Cards? We get it. Some people don't put that much value into defensive or defensive stats. But for those who do it's clear that Heyward has been the teams best player this season.
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He maybe has, but so many of you don't even entertain the thought that anyone but Heyward is the best player on that team. It's not about defense. That's important and I put a lot of stock in defense. Most of us traditionalists do and we laughed a decade or so ago when so many sabermetricians didn't. But replacing Heyward's defense would likely be a relatively easier task than replacing Carpenter's offense. As we have witnessed in Atlanta the past couple of seasons, you have to score runs to win.
 
50PoundHead said:
He maybe has, but so many of you don't even entertain the thought that anyone but Heyward is the best player on that team. It's not about defense. That's important and I put a lot of stock in defense. Most of us traditionalists do and we laughed a decade or so ago when so many sabermetricians didn't. But replacing Heyward's defense would likely be a relatively easier task than replacing Carpenter's offense. As we have witnessed in Atlanta the past couple of seasons, you have to score runs to win.
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First off I only say Heyward has been their best player because that's what the stats say, not because it's Heyward. I don't have some hard on for him just for the sake of doing so. He just happens to produce a very good WAR every year and that's generally how I rank players. And yes we all know you need to score runs to win games. And as we've seen in this year with Heywards departure it helps a lot to have great defense in the outfield. Both win games. And given two players with equal WAR I would favor the player that gets most of his value with the bat. With that being said the difference between Heywards and Carpenters defense is greater than the difference between them offensively thus Heyward is the better player, imo. If you don't think that's the case then that's fine. But I find it that most of the people that tout Heyward aren't doing so as some crusade because they think he's gods gift to baseball and do so blindly. Most do it because they feel WAR is a perfectly acceptable stat and rank him accordingly.
 
thewupk said:
First off I only say Heyward has been their best player because that's what the stats say, not because it's Heyward. I don't have some hard on for him just for the sake of doing so. He just happens to produce a very good WAR every year and that's generally how I rank players. And yes we all know you need to score runs to win games. And as we've seen in this year with Heywards departure it helps a lot to have great defense in the outfield. Both win games. And given two players with equal WAR I would favor the player that gets most of his value with the bat. With that being said the difference between Heywards and Carpenters defense is greater than the difference between them offensively thus Heyward is the better player, imo. If you don't think that's the case then that's fine. But I find it that most of the people that tout Heyward aren't doing so as some crusade because they think he's gods gift to baseball and do so blindly. Most do it because they feel WAR is a perfectly acceptable stat and rank him accordingly.
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Thank you. Someone on the team has to be the best player on the team. Just because I say it's been Heyward doesn't mean I won't ever say anything different. I'm saying that objectively. If someone else was better, I would have no issue saying that.

It's like dismissing the opinion of someone who keeps saying Kershaw is the best pitcher in the league because they won't say anyone else is. Well, Kershaw happens to be the best pitcher in the league. Anyone saying there's no way Heyward is their best player is far more biased than those saying he is.

And no, it's not easier to replace Heyward's defense. There's pretty good evidence to back up the argument that Heyward is the best defensive OF in baseball...so you're going to have a tough time replacing that with someone similar.
 
smootness said:
I get that Taveras was really talented, but even if Taveras would have brought the same value Heyward did this year, it doesn't change the discussion at all. You claimed Heyward doesn't improve his team, which is kind of ridiculous. In order to judge that, use either a replacement-level player or an average player as your baseline.
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Nobody said anything about "replacement-level players," well, until you did. Since you brought it up, you'll have to educate the gallery about how the Cards wouldn't be sitting pretty without St. Justin. Even Wiley Coyote, Super Genius, concedes that they probably would have otherwise been without him in the lineup. That presumably excludes the 1st half, which he has a history of sleeping through.

smootness said:
What you're saying would be similar to me saying, 'I don't think Andrew McCutchen really improves his team because if you replaced him with Mike Trout, the Pirates would still be just as g ood, if not better.'
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You'll have to show me what I mentioned McCutcheon, because that doesn't ring any bells.

smootness said:
Jason Heyward has likely been the best player on the best team in baseball this year. If you think for some reason he doesn't improve his team, that's on you. He's not the best player in the league, or even one of the top 5. But he's very, very good.
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Thanks for setting me straight. The Cards have a system that makes them successful every year. They will be a serious contender next without him. They somehow managed to win multiples WS titles without him. He may help them, but is not essential. Nobody is, save maybe Yadier Molina. Since you're now posturing as some sort of expert as to what makes a team better, let's hear it. Please school me on how a championship team cannot function without The Second Coming.
 
Knucksie said:
Nobody said anything about "replacement-level players," well, until you did. Since you brought it up, you'll have to educate the gallery about how the Cards wouldn't be sitting pretty without St. Justin. Even Wiley Coyote, Super Genius, concedes that they probably would have otherwise been without him in the lineup. That presumably excludes the 1st half, which he has a history of sleeping through.

You'll have to show me what I mentioned McCutcheon, because that doesn't ring any bells.

Thanks for setting me straight. The Cards have a system that makes them successful every year. They will be a serious contender next without him. They somehow managed to win multiples WS titles without him. He may help them, but is not essential. Nobody is, save maybe Yadier Molina. Since you're now posturing as some sort of expert as to what makes a team better, let's hear it. Please school me on how a championship team cannot function without The Second Coming.
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That's like saying you could take Maddux off of the 90's Braves and they would still win a ton of division titles. They won before he got here so he must not be that important. Just because you take a good player off of a stacked team and that team can still win doesn't make that player any less important to the team. That's just not how it works. So yeah take Heyward, Carpenter, or any other good player on that team and give them replacement or average production and they are likely still leading the division. But they wouldn't be coasting like they are.
 
thewupk said:
First off I only say Heyward has been their best player because that's what the stats say, not because it's Heyward. I don't have some hard on for him just for the sake of doing so. He just happens to produce a very good WAR every year and that's generally how I rank players. And yes we all know you need to score runs to win games. And as we've seen in this year with Heywards departure it helps a lot to have great defense in the outfield. Both win games. And given two players with equal WAR I would favor the player that gets most of his value with the bat. With that being said the difference between Heywards and Carpenters defense is greater than the difference between them offensively thus Heyward is the better player, imo. If you don't think that's the case then that's fine. But I find it that most of the people that tout Heyward aren't doing so as some crusade because they think he's gods gift to baseball and do so blindly. Most do it because they feel WAR is a perfectly acceptable stat and rank him accordingly.
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WAR is, at least to me, still too simplistic.
 
smootness said:
It's like dismissing the opinion of someone who keeps saying Kershaw is the best pitcher in the league because they won't say anyone else is. Well, Kershaw happens to be the best pitcher in the league. Anyone saying there's no way Heyward is their best player is far more biased than those saying he is.
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Cards have a lot of good players, could make the argument for Peralta, MCarp or Molina over Heyward but some here have a boner for Heyward.
 
smootness said:
Bringing up Taveras in evaluating Heyward's impact on this year's team is pointless. Regardless of the reason they had to go get Heyward, they have him on the team this year and they are winning a ton of games.

Bringing up Shelby isn't meaningful, either. They did lose Shelby and even still they're killing it. Heyward, by any measure, is a big part of the reason why.
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Heyward's helped alot but swap Heyward elsewhere, and give Stl, Shelby/Taveras, there's not that much difference in the W/L column
 
Heyward said:
Cards have a lot of good players, could make the argument for Peralta, MCarp or Molina over Heyward but some here have a boner for Heyward.
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Give us that argument. Heywards war is higher so Id like a counter to that. Provide evidence and not just say no way because it's heyward.
 
thewupk said:
Give us that argument. Heywards war is higher so Id like a counter to that. Provide evidence and not just say no way because it's heyward.
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Thats because of WAR and we all know WAR is over inflated with defense, this wont go anywhere.

Agree to disagree.
 
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