One More Punt???

zitothebrave said:
I don't believe anyone is untouchable. But no way do I actively shop Freeman. He's the hardest player to replace on our roster, we need to get massive return for him. From a value point I mean like what the Tigers gave up for Miggy. Of course Maybin and Miller didn't amount to much but they were 2 top 10 prospects and Tigers ate Dontrelle Willis's contract.
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Freeman isn't in the same universe as Miggy and likely never will be. Cabrera was one of the best players in baseball when he was dealt. Think Harper. He had three seasons in Florida leading up to the trade with an OPS no lower than .947. He hit .320 or better in each of those seasons. He had seasons of 34, 33 and 33 HR all before he was 24 with no history of injury and playing in a bad hitters park.
 
I cannot believe all this concern about the payroll and trading X, Y or Z to get his salary off the books. The amount of money the ownership is going to make at the new stadium is staggering. Trading Upton and Uggla was important because they weren't doing a darn thing to earn that big salary. That's not the case with these guys, except perhaps for Bourn.

Make trades if the value on the return is superior. The days of dumping should be over.
 
Here's an excerpt of what Bowman had to say about the plan/expectations for 2016 in his latest mailbag:

"There was nothing fake about the pain or embarrassment of which team president John Schuerholz and president of baseball operations John Hart spoke about during this year's second half. They certainly do not want to relive that experience -- especially as they are attempting to drum up excitement while preparing to move into SunTrust Park.

So, expect this winter's moves to be aimed more toward generating long-term value. If the young starters take a step forward and the bullpen is strengthened, next year's second half might provide a glimpse of what could come in 2017. The Royals won 72 games in '12 and then went 43-27 during the second half of their 86-win '13 season. This is the kind of progression the Braves hope to begin to make next year."

They're not gonna trade off any more of our regulars.
 
Hudson2 said:
Here's an excerpt of what Bowman had to say about the plan/expectations for 2016 in his latest mailbag:

"There was nothing fake about the pain or embarrassment of which team president John Schuerholz and president of baseball operations John Hart spoke about during this year's second half. They certainly do not want to relive that experience -- especially as they are attempting to drum up excitement while preparing to move into SunTrust Park.

So, expect this winter's moves to be aimed more toward generating long-term value. If the young starters take a step forward and the bullpen is strengthened, next year's second half might provide a glimpse of what could come in 2017. The Royals won 72 games in '12 and then went 43-27 during the second half of their 86-win '13 season. This is the kind of progression the Braves hope to begin to make next year."

They're not gonna trade off any more of our regulars.
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They should be embarrassed that they allowed it to get to where it was.

They should be embarrassed that they totally misread the value proposition when they began to make the re-build trades, asking for pitching when it was going to be hitting that was hard to get.

Unless they are going to infuse a lot, and I mean A LOT, of cash into the payroll, they are just whistling past the graveyard if they don't make more significant moves this offseason.

The reference to KC completely ignores the years, YEARS that KC spent as one of the worst teams in baseball collecting home grown talent that proved integral to this years team. Hosmer (1st rd, 3rd overall, 2008), Moustakas (1st rd, 2nd overall 2007), Hochevar (1st round, 1st overall 2006), Colon (1st rd, 4th overall 2010), Alex Gordon (1st rd, 2nd overall, 2005), Salvador Perez (International 2007), and that doesn't count the Will Myers' who brought back pieces that made the team or guys like Duffy (3rd rd, 2007), Greg Holland (10th rd, 2007).

This KC team was built by sucking FOR YEARS over a span from 5-10 years ago. Then they added a few hole filling pieces that put them over the top.

Do you really believe that is remotely relevant to the Braves?

Does anyone really believe KC will still be relevant in 3 years?
 
JS and Hart come off as very egotistical so I couldn't see them staying down for long. I figured they would speed it up as quick as possible. If the new stadium was 3 years away then I don't think there would be as big of a hurry. I do remember that Hart said they they tried to get offense in trades but nobody would part with it.
 
Hudson2 said:
JS and Hart come off as very egotistical so I couldn't see them staying down for long. I figured they would speed it up as quick as possible. If the new stadium was 3 years away then I don't think there would be as big of a hurry. I do remember that Hart said they they tried to get offense in trades but nobody would part with it.
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I don't believe that. Plenty of offense was moved at the deadline. Sounds like "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
 
The FO is in a somewhat tricky position trying to put this puzzle together:

1) It wants a team that will be a strong contender by 2017

2) It wants to achieve this while building a foundation (farm system) that will ensure the team will be competitive year-in year-out for a long time.

3) The best talent in the farm system played 2015 at ages 17-18. Realistically this group won't be hitting it stride in the majors until they are 24-25 or the 2022 season. And there is the uncertainty that comes with a group of prospects that is that far away.

4) Freeman's contract runs through 2021 and Simmons' through 2020.
 
nsacpi said:
The FO is in a somewhat tricky position trying to put this puzzle together:

1) It wants a team that will be a strong contender by 2017

2) It wants to achieve this while building a foundation (farm system) that will ensure the team will be competitive year-in year-out for a long time.

3) The best talent in the farm system played 2015 at ages 17-18. Realistically this group won't be hitting it stride in the majors until they are 24-25 or the 2022 season. And there is the uncertainty that comes with a group of prospects that is that far away.

4) Freeman's contract runs through 2021 and Simmons' through 2020.
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It's tricky if they don't have the guts to finish what they started. It's like doing a triple back flip, with four side twists and a tuck from the 60 meter board but deciding half way down that you'd rather just perform an cannon ball and call it a day. Not only are you not going to score well but chances are you are going to walk away with sore privates if you walk at all.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Freeman isn't in the same universe as Miggy and likely never will be. Cabrera was one of the best players in baseball when he was dealt. Think Harper. He had three seasons in Florida leading up to the trade with an OPS no lower than .947. He hit .320 or better in each of those seasons. He had seasons of 34, 33 and 33 HR all before he was 24 with no history of injury and playing in a bad hitters park.
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Miggy wasn't in that level yet when he was traded, and IIRC only had 1 more year of control, at most 2. In his first 5 years he had an 18.2 rWAR and a 21.9 offensive rWAR. Freeman in a similar number of PA to Miggy at his point of trade has a 15.7 rWAR and a 15.2 oWAR. Miggy is clearly better, and he was a year younger than Freddie is now. BUT there is the contract catch. Miggy was only under contract for one more year, maybe 2 more years (can't remember to be honest) Freeman is under control for 6 mroe years and what should be a very good bargain in a pretty short time. If Freeman was a FA he'd almost 100% for sure get more than the 6/118 he's set to make. He'd be probably at least be looking at 10/250. Freeman is a fantastic bargain. No he's not the top end talent as Miggy, but his age, his contract, and his ability are all extremely valuable. And if no one wants to pay a premium for it, no way I trade him. I want like Urias and Seager or Giolito and Turner. I'm not letting him go for anything short of 2 top prospects or 2 young high ceiling impact players. Freeman is an incredible trade chip.
 
zitothebrave said:
Miggy wasn't in that level yet when he was traded, and IIRC only had 1 more year of control, at most 2. In his first 5 years he had an 18.2 rWAR and a 21.9 offensive rWAR. Freeman in a similar number of PA to Miggy at his point of trade has a 15.7 rWAR and a 15.2 oWAR. Miggy is clearly better, and he was a year younger than Freddie is now. BUT there is the contract catch. Miggy was only under contract for one more year, maybe 2 more years (can't remember to be honest) Freeman is under control for 6 mroe years and what should be a very good bargain in a pretty short time. If Freeman was a FA he'd almost 100% for sure get more than the 6/118 he's set to make. He'd be probably at least be looking at 10/250. Freeman is a fantastic bargain. No he's not the top end talent as Miggy, but his age, his contract, and his ability are all extremely valuable. And if no one wants to pay a premium for it, no way I trade him. I want like Urias and Seager or Giolito and Turner. I'm not letting him go for anything short of 2 top prospects or 2 young high ceiling impact players. Freeman is an incredible trade chip.
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I don't disagree that he is extremely valuable. That's why I want to trade him because he should bring back both quantity and quality. I think a trade like I put out before which is Freeman and Maybin to Cleveland for RH OF Clint Frazier, LH 1B Bobby Bradley, LH CF Tyler Naquin and S Catcher Francisco Mejia makes sense.

Or a trade with Pittsburgh with Freeman for LH OF Austin Meadows, S 1B Josh Bell and RH OF Wily Garcia makes sense.

In either case you are POTENTIALLY filling 2 long term OF holes and getting a replacement for 1B. The Cleveland deal brings you back a catching prospect.

AND you clear the payroll allowing you to shop in the FA market or take on trade contracts.

As for Cabrera, the numbers that I provided were for his Florida years prior to trade. He was playing a lot of 3rd then but had no injury history. Freeman at least has some concern about his wrist.
 
clvclv said:
That's why you trade them all if you're going to trade any.

For example...

Simmons to the Yankees for Judge, Gary Sanchez, and Jacob Lindgren. There's your Opening Day 2017 Catcher (or LF), RF, and potential Closer.

Freeman to Boston for Margot, Espinoza, and Sam Travis. There's your Opening Day 2017 1B and CF, and potential Opening Day 2018 SP.

Teheran to Colorado for Ryan McMahon and Forest Wall. There's your potential Opening Day 2017 3B and 2B.

Miller to Chicago for Duane Underwood, Willson Contreras, and Dylan Cease. There's your potential Opening Day 2017 Catcher (or LF), and potential Opening Day 2018 rotation member and Closer.

This is where I agree with 50 so much - if you're blowing it up for the future, then do it - don't stop halfway.
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That's right. Don't half-ass it. Whole-ass it.
 
nsacpi said:
The FO is in a somewhat tricky position trying to put this puzzle together:

1) It wants a team that will be a strong contender by 2017

2) It wants to achieve this while building a foundation (farm system) that will ensure the team will be competitive year-in year-out for a long time.

3) The best talent in the farm system played 2015 at ages 17-18. Realistically this group won't be hitting it stride in the majors until they are 24-25 or the 2022 season. And there is the uncertainty that comes with a group of prospects that is that far away.

4) Freeman's contract runs through 2021 and Simmons' through 2020.
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Some would say impossible.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
They should be embarrassed that they allowed it to get to where it was.

They should be embarrassed that they totally misread the value proposition when they began to make the re-build trades, asking for pitching when it was going to be hitting that was hard to get.

Unless they are going to infuse a lot, and I mean A LOT, of cash into the payroll, they are just whistling past the graveyard if they don't make more significant moves this offseason.

The reference to KC completely ignores the years, YEARS that KC spent as one of the worst teams in baseball collecting home grown talent that proved integral to this years team. Hosmer (1st rd, 3rd overall, 2008), Moustakas (1st rd, 2nd overall 2007), Hochevar (1st round, 1st overall 2006), Colon (1st rd, 4th overall 2010), Alex Gordon (1st rd, 2nd overall, 2005), Salvador Perez (International 2007), and that doesn't count the Will Myers' who brought back pieces that made the team or guys like Duffy (3rd rd, 2007), Greg Holland (10th rd, 2007).

This KC team was built by sucking FOR YEARS over a span from 5-10 years ago. Then they added a few hole filling pieces that put them over the top.

Do you really believe that is remotely relevant to the Braves?

Does anyone really believe KC will still be relevant in 3 years?
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What the KC rebuild proves to me is that if you remove time as a variable in your equation- e.g., "we want to be competitive 2017," you stand a far better chance of success. Give me a half-decade of picking at the top and trading every promising player for three younger promising players, I can build you a winner. It just takes time.
 
nsacpi said:
I think perhaps there will be a redefinition of certain terms or phrases used by the front office about what kind of team we would have in 2017.
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Something along the lines of, "hopefully in the 2017 time frame. We now see it may take a little longer."
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Something along the lines of, "hopefully in the 2017 time frame. We now see it may take a little longer."
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honestly, we have no idea how long it will take. the young guns might figure it out next year and all of a sudden we have a 'Mutts' like pitching staff. two or three guys in a lineup can carry a team to victories. However, I am on board with a close to total strip down to continue to build the foundation. The pitching depth has been addressed nicely. Always nice to add more, and we should at the draft this year. But the focus now should be hitters. Trading Freeman and either Julio/Miller would bring in a nice influx of hitting prospects. I still feel we should keep Simmons based on his defense alone. up the middle D is hugely important. I also, for at least this off season, think we should keep one of Miller/Julio just to help stabilize the rotation. I would focus on a shut down bullpen as best as possible to help the young starters pitch with aggressiveness. If they know they can just go six strong then their job is so much easier.. they can then learn how to go deeper as they develop confidence.
By 17 or 18 the hitters in the minors are ready to start feeding the major league team. At that point you now have money to spend and you can add pieces to an already strong foundation. Rinse/repeat/prosper.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
honestly, we have no idea how long it will take. the young guns might figure it out next year and all of a sudden we have a 'Mutts' like pitching staff. two or three guys in a lineup can carry a team to victories.
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Who are these young guns who might figure it out and give us a Mets like rotation within a year.
 
nsacpi said:
Who are these young guns who might figure it out and give us a Mets like rotation within a year.
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bad analogy..

Wisler/Folty might be able to step up and be much better this coming year. they have the talent. ManBan will have an opportunity to prove quality as well. We have pitching that has potential. Just saying you don't know who or how many will realize that potential.
 
zitothebrave said:
I don't believe anyone is untouchable. But no way do I actively shop Freeman. He's the hardest player to replace on our roster, we need to get massive return for him. From a value point I mean like what the Tigers gave up for Miggy. Of course Maybin and Miller didn't amount to much but they were 2 top 10 prospects and Tigers ate Dontrelle Willis's contract.
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No argument here - I'm definitely not in favor of "shopping" any of them actively. But there are plenty of ways to entertain offers without doing that. Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) saw Beane dealing Donaldson before the paperwork had already been approved by the Commissioner's Office last winter. The point is, Coppy or Hart could quietly let Dombrowski or Cashman or Theo and Jed know that these guys are available TO THEM only if they'll part with what they want in return. There's no doubt in my mind that Beane told AA know that if ANY news that Donaldson surfaced ANYWHERE before the deal was done that he wouldn't be available.
 
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