Simmons dealt to Angels for two top pitchers, Aybar

Then how do we score runs in magical 2017? We won't trade for bats and we won't spend on bats.

I'm with you on that. I'd sign both Heyward and the good Upton if it were up to me, and money wasn't an issue.

Given the reality that, right or wrong, the Braves weren't going to resign either of those guys, it made sense to trade them.

The front office seems stuck in the 80s/ 90s mentality that pitching trumps all. That's great in an era where backup middle infielders can put up an .800 plus OPS. Stud pitchers who throw 95-plus are the modern day equivalent of those guys, yet for some reason we seem hell bent on acquiring every big framed big arm there is.
 
Money was behind the new stadium as well, this has been bothering me too. Liberty isn't loosening the purse, and we have to find other avenues of cash.

Yep. In the article about Braves being publicly traded it mentions the Braves borrowed about 200 million in money from Liberty to help fund the stadium.

Really goes back to our bad tv deal with Fox until 2026? We are getting way below our value and even marker value in our tv deal. The Royals have a bigger payroll than us. 10 years ago that was laughable.

We had a great core in tact that any team would be jealous of. Injuries got the best of meds and minor but we still had the best defensive shortstop in the league, one of the best outfielders in the game and the best closer in baseball. And we still have Freeman too. Just sad to see the early 2010's core be ripped apart so quickly.
 
So you know for a fact that we have no intention of trading or signing any bats before 2017? Cool story

We will get some bats. But they will be the likes of Kelly Johnson or Juan Uribe. Our FO has told us that we aren't signing any of the top tier bats and that nobody was willing to trade them during the Simmons deal. Now I suspect we will get some but it will be a massive overpay in terms of talent.
 
I'm with you on that. I'd sign both Heyward and the good Upton if it were up to me, and money wasn't an issue.

Given the reality that, right or wrong, the Braves weren't going to resign either of those guys, it made sense to trade them.

The front office seems stuck in the 80s/ 90s mentality that pitching trumps all. That's great in an era where backup middle infielders can put up an .800 plus OPS. Stud pitchers who throw 95-plus are the modern day equivalent of those guys, yet for some reason we seem hell bent on acquiring every big framed big arm there is.

The other side of that is the bust rate of pitchers is so much bigger than hitters... so it's likely we're going to miss on a bunch of these guys we've given up our assets for
 
I think it's pretty clear that this trade set the Braves up to trade pitching for young controllable offense as the next big move of the offseason. Whether that bat is McMahon, or a catcher, or someone I can't even fathom, the trade is coming.

When the future rotation consists of the 2-3 current young guns that panned out plus Miller and some solid FA acquisition to round out the back end, everyone will be on Coppy's nutsack about the young cheap rotation he built...just like they are with the Mets.
 
I think it's pretty clear that this trade set the Braves up to trade pitching for young controllable offense as the next big move of the offseason. Whether that bat is McMahon, or a catcher, or someone I can't even fathom, the trade is coming.

When the future rotation consists of the 2-3 current young guns that panned out plus Miller and some solid FA acquisition to round out the back end, everyone will be on Coppy's nutsack about the young cheap rotation he built...just like they are with the Mets.

Mets will be able to afford to keep their pitching long term. We won't.
 
I think it's pretty clear that this trade set the Braves up to trade pitching for young controllable offense as the next big move of the offseason. Whether that bat is McMahon, or a catcher, or someone I can't even fathom, the trade is coming.

When the future rotation consists of the 2-3 current young guns that panned out plus Miller and some solid FA acquisition to round out the back end, everyone will be on Coppy's nutsack about the young cheap rotation he built...just like they are with the Mets.

Yeah. The Mets were a joke when they were stockpiling their pitching. Now they're geniuses for having 5 young aces.
 
I don't even care if this trade is fair or not, it is still depressing. It seems like yet another in a long series of moves designed to make the fanbase completely disinterested in the team.

Andrelton Simmons is exactly the type of player (young, cost-controlled, upside) the Braves should be acquiring if they are serious about 2017. The idea that we are gonna make a bunch of replacements through FA is preposterous. We are a ****ty team with no money, and terrible FA track record.
 
I don't even care if this trade is fair or not, it is still depressing. It seems like yet another in a long series of moves designed to make the fanbase completely disinterested in the team.

Andrelton Simmons is exactly the type of player (young, cost-controlled, upside) the Braves should be acquiring if they are serious about 2017. The idea that we are gonna make a bunch of replacements through FA is preposterous. We are a ****ty team with no money, and terrible FA track record.

If 3 years from now Simmons is "just" a great defensive SS that is still putting up a sub 700 ops while earning $15M, will the views on this trade change?

Fact of the matter is the Braves just traded Simmons for 1 year of a legit MLB SS and prospects that now rank #1 and #9 in what was already a top 5 farm system. Guys like Newcomb, Allard, Fried, Folty and Touki have a legit chance to reach the true Ace level. Guys like Miller, Teheran, Wisler, Sims and Soroka have a chance to legit MOR guys that flash stretches of being TOR guys.

Expect to get pretty angry when guys like Miller and Teheran and Freeman start getting to the expensive stages of their team control and are also traded for younger players. The problem right now is there aren't any young players ready to fill the holes these trades have created, but in 2-3 years guys like Riley and Allard and Albies will be ready...and then maybe the Braves won't suck. Maybe.
 
Mets will be able to afford to keep their pitching long term. We won't.

There are already rumblings about having to make Harvey available a year or so from now. He's not going to sign an extension (even in New York), and I certainly wouldn't think you'd want a lame-duck Borass client during his last year before free-agency, he'd be all but impossible to trade to get anything of value for.
 
I've backed off the ledge from my original emotional reaction to the trade and can certainly see the upside—Newcomb looks to be damned good. Still, he's a pitching prospect, and the attrition rate there has got to be of some concern. There's a chance that we'll have the Young Guns 2.0, and a not insignificant chance that we'll end up having traded our last cow for a handful of magic beans that never sprouted.

I really do agree that the future is bright, but right now that future looks to start early in the next decade . . . which makes things like the Olivera trade and the Markakis signing look less than sly. I'm with Meta in that I think this is a move that is alienating to the fanbase, particularly coming in the middle of this nebulous "complete teardown vs. competitive 2017" dynamic, for which the FO's plans appear to be completely opaque. If the next move, per Enscheff, is to trade some young, cost-controlled pitching for hitting, then I might jump back on board and wave the flag. Right now, though, I just feel kinda unenthused about the team and its direction.

The silver lining of another couple of years of stinkage is that we'll draft high, and if this year is an indication, we'll draft well. I think we'll get there. At this point, though, I'd rather trade everything that isn't bolted down and play Castro, Peterson, Garcia, and the kids instead of ****ing around with band-aids and 30+ FAs with 8-figure deals. Don't sign any free agents that aren't from the dented can bin. Trade Aybar. Trade another starter. Trade Freddie if the price is right. Rip the band-aid off.

But hey, we got AJ for another year, so there's bound to be some comic relief on the horizon.
 
If 3 years from now Simmons is "just" a great defensive SS that is still putting up a sub 700 ops while earning $15M, will the views on this trade change?

Fact of the matter is the Braves just traded Simmons for 1 year of a legit MLB SS and prospects that now rank #1 and #9 in what was already a top 5 farm system. Guys like Newcomb, Allard, Fried, Folty and Touki have a legit chance to reach the true Ace level. Guys like Miller, Teheran, Wisler, Sims and Soroka have a chance to legit MOR guys that flash stretches of being TOR guys.

Expect to get pretty angry when guys like Miller and Teheran and Freeman start getting to the expensive stages of their team control and are also traded for younger players. The problem right now is there aren't any young players ready to fill the holes these trades have created, but in 2-3 years guys like Riley and Allard and Albies will be ready...and then maybe the Braves won't suck. Maybe.

That's pretty vague and doesn't take into account park factors, league factors, or what great really means on defense. What we do know is that Simmons is a 3-4 WAR player and getting that for 15 million today would be a really good deal. Getting 3-4 WAR for 15 million 2020 is likely a way better bargain.
 
If 3 years from now Simmons is "just" a great defensive SS that is still putting up a sub 700 ops while earning $15M, will the views on this trade change?

Fact of the matter is the Braves just traded Simmons for 1 year of a legit MLB SS and prospects that now rank #1 and #9 in what was already a top 5 farm system. Guys like Newcomb, Allard, Fried, Folty and Touki have a legit chance to reach the true Ace level. Guys like Miller, Teheran, Wisler, Sims and Soroka have a chance to legit MOR guys that flash stretches of being TOR guys.

Expect to get pretty angry when guys like Miller and Teheran and Freeman start getting to the expensive stages of their team control and are also traded for younger players. The problem right now is there aren't any young players ready to fill the holes these trades have created, but in 2-3 years guys like Riley and Allard and Albies will be ready...and then maybe the Braves won't suck. Maybe.

Well, it was certainly noted that $11M wouldn't look like ridiculous figure to pay for Nick Markakis in three years, even if his skills degrade, given $/WAR inflation. So . . .
 
Well, it was certainly noted that $11M wouldn't look like ridiculous figure to pay for Nick Markakis in three years, even if his skills degrade, given $/WAR inflation. So . . .

A 1.7 WAR player making 11 million will have no effect on payroll but a 3-4 WAR player making 15 million will.
 
Couple of things here. Defense has gone from underrated during the steroid era to overrated in the post steroid defensive metrics area. There will be an evening out of defensive value in the next few years.

Also defensive minded players plateau at a young age and thus lose value. Simmons's defense will never progress only regress.

I like Heyward, Peraza, and Simmons. However, if they're viewed as overvalued stock then you trade them.
 
A 1.7 WAR player making 11 million will have no effect on payroll but a 3-4 WAR player making 15 million will.



Are you even aware how idiotic that comparison is? Simmons at $15m is obviously more valuable than Markakis at $11m, which is precisely why the return for Simmons is now the best prospect in the entire Braves system.

I swear, some people just can't seem to take logical steps so I'll spell it out for them.

Simmons value stems from all world defense and the potential for improved offense, all at an affordable price. If his defense falters a bit, and his offense never improves beyond the sub 700 old guy he has been to date, suddenly he isn't that valuable at $15m.

The Braves obviously feel the risk/reward of a potential Ace is worth the risk/reward of Simmons.
 
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