Heyman on Braves' trade chips and Olivera

[zbhargrove]

Yeah - everyone's favorite whipping boy JHey was an elite hitting prospect in the minors at a very young age... and now everyone says he's not a good enough hitter

And Albies and Swanson rare both nowhere near on the level offensively as Heyward was

He isn't a good enough hitter now... he has a .775 OPS for his MLB career and is sitting at .634 this year as he's entering his prime. He had an .894 OPS in the minors... obviously his ability as a prospect did not translate to the majors. He was an elite hitting prospect who didn't realize his offensive potential... let's not act like he's doing as good offensively as he was projected... you're better than that.

 

[yeezus]

And Albies and Swanson rare both nowhere near on the level offensively as Heyward was

And yet they could very well be more productive hitters than he's been. He's not a great hitter by any stretch. He's not elite, just like you said Albies and Swanson aren't. Yet you wanted to give him all the money.

 

[nsacpi]

Every FO has some bad moves. You have to evaluate based on the overall picture. The HO trade is the new regime's biggest mistake so far. Smaller mistakes include Markakis and Bethancourt. The Simmons trade also did not net a good enough return imo.

That is still more than offset by Miller and Kimbrel trades.

 

[yeezus]

Every FO has some bad moves. You have to evaluate based on the overall picture. The HO trade is the new regime's biggest mistake so far. Smaller mistakes include Markakis and Bethancourt. The Simmons trade also did not net a good enough return imo.

That is still more than offset by Miller and Kimbrel trades.

And I'll disagree on the CB and Simmons parts, and am meh on Markakis.

 

[thewupk]

And yet they could very well be more productive hitters than he's been. He's not a great hitter by any stretch. He's not elite, just like you said Albies and Swanson aren't. Yet you wanted to give him all the money.

Swanson I could see matching Heywards offensvie output. I doubt Albies will. And no Heyward isn't an elite hitter either but he's not getting paid like one either.

 

[yeezus]

Swanson I could see matching Heywards offensvie output. I doubt Albies will. And no Heyward isn't an elite hitter either but he's not getting paid like one either.

Albies could have a better wRC+. and he plays 2B or SS, not corner OF, so could be better offensively relative to other players at his position.

 

[gilesfan]

I disagree with your pertinent point. I think we can afford to make a single 8 figure mistake. Royals signed Frenchy to an 8 figure contract for example. Everything needs to be put in perspective. What is the net result of all transactions and what is the smartest strategy going forward? Olivera was a disaster and a hilarious mistake, but could we afford that mistake? I would argue we can afford one of these at least. Imo, Wren had grounds to be fired and more importantly he had the wrong strategy going forward. Did he deserve all the blame? No, but we're dealing with narcissistic personalities here and imo Wren was one of those personalities. I don't really care to be bothered with the who gets the blame politics.

But, we made a 8 figure mistake while giving up talented young pieces in the process. I'm less concerned with FA mistakes than I am when you make a financial mistake while giving up prospects in doing so.

 

[gilesfan]

He isn't a good enough hitter now... he has a .775 OPS for his MLB career and is sitting at .634 this year as he's entering his prime. He had an .894 OPS in the minors... obviously his ability as a prospect did not translate to the majors. He was an elite hitting prospect who didn't realize his offensive potential... let's not act like he's doing as good offensively as he was projected... you're better than that.

I certainly wouldn't make the comment that "he isn't a good hitter." Over the course of his career, he's been top 75ish.

 

[GovClintonTyree]

I kinda hate myself for continuing the same dumb yearlong conversation from the other thread—and, many, many others besides that one—but, this bears mentioning, with a couple of stipulations.

1. Nobody gets 'em all right. Coppy is entitled to a mistake.

2. We missed on Olivera. Forgetting the DV, the dude has not looked like a big league piece. We ****ed up.

Can we all agree on that?

The pertinent point here is that it doesn't matter what the Dodgers paid for the right to sign him. They can afford to make an eight-figure mistake. We can't.

The end.

 

[zbhargrove]

I certainly wouldn't make the comment that "he isn't a good hitter." Over the course of his career, he's been top 75ish.

I didn't say "he isn't a good hitter" I said he "isn't a good enough hitter now"... meaning he isn't good enough compared to his prospect status which was the comment I replied to... but hey don't let reading the original post or correctly quoting get in your way.

 

[sturg33]

And yet they could very well be more productive hitters than he's been. He's not a great hitter by any stretch. He's not elite, just like you said Albies and Swanson aren't. Yet you wanted to give him all the money.

I think Swanson and Albies will be terrific players.

I think Heyward is a terrific player.

But my point is, if Heyward isn't a good enough hitter for you folks, then I would temper my expectations of what we will get from Swanson/Albies

 

[nsacpi]

I think Swanson and Albies will be terrific players.

I think Heyward is a terrific player.

Yup. I'd take any of them over a defensively limited slugger who can give you 30 home runs.

 

[Russ2dollas]

I think Swanson and Albies will be terrific players.

I think Heyward is a terrific player.

But my point is, if Heyward isn't a good enough hitter for you folks, then I would temper my expectations of what we will get from Swanson/Albies

Swason and Albies will be SS/2B. Heyward plays RF. If Simmons hit like Heyward he'd be a MVP candidate.

I think we DID GREAT on the Heyward deal. I wish we could have signed him back, but bridges were burned. With the money in baseball his contract will not look bad soon, even if it does now.

I didn't think he was worth the contract he got. But it's not my money. And baseball has a ton of money coming in. So we just have to get used to what used to be a 10 million dollar player is now a 20 million dollar player.

Heyward would make us better. He's not the middle of the order hitter we desperately need or wanted him to be. But he's better than Inciarte, Mallex and Neck and it's not close.

 

[sturg33]

Swason and Albies will be SS/2B. Heyward plays RF. If Simmons hit like Heyward he'd be a MVP candidate.

I think we DID GREAT on the Heyward deal. I wish we could have signed him back, but bridges were burned. With the money in baseball his contract will not look bad soon, even if it does now.

I didn't think he was worth the contract he got. But it's not my money. And baseball has a ton of money coming in. So we just have to get used to what used to be a 10 million dollar player is now a 20 million dollar player.

Heyward would make us better. He's not the middle of the order hitter we desperately need or wanted him to be. But he's better than Inciarte, Mallex and Neck and it's not close.

If we made the decision to burn it to the ground, I'm fine with trading him too and we did well (a little lucky with Shelby which I thought was a light return but luckily he pitched way over his head).

Heyward was worth his contract. There was a reason that some of the smartest teams in baseball were lining up to sign him for that much

 

[yeezus]

I think Swanson and Albies will be terrific players.

I think Heyward is a terrific player.

But my point is, if Heyward isn't a good enough hitter for you folks, then I would temper my expectations of what we will get from Swanson/Albies

I think both of them could be better hitters when you consider position. And I think 100% of people were fine with Heyward's production for his cost before the contract; it's the idea of giving him $23M a year that makes me pause. I don't think he's a good enough hitter to warrant that much money per year, especially in this franchise. In a vacuum, he's a completely fine player I'd love to have. But when there's so much talk of needing elite hitters or power hitters, I'm not sure where giving Heyward $23M fits in to that discussion.

 

[yeezus]

Heyward was worth his contract. There was a reason that some of the smartest teams in baseball were lining up to sign him for that much

Also clubs that have much more money to spend, had better prospects/young players, and already had plenty of power/potential elite hitters. giving Heyward $23M didn't fit Atlanta the way it fit Chicago.

I'm genuinely curious, though: what teams were lining up to give him that? Obviously the Cubs had the highest offer, and they're doing great more in spite of him than because of him.

 

[sturg33]

I think both of them could be better hitters when you consider position. And I think 100% of people were fine with Heyward's production for his cost before the contract; it's the idea of giving him $23M a year that makes me pause. I don't think he's a good enough hitter to warrant that much money per year, especially in this franchise. In a vacuum, he's a completely fine player I'd love to have. But when there's so much talk of needing elite hitters or power hitters, I'm not sure where giving Heyward $23M fits in to that discussion.

Heyward was the 13th best offensive player in the NL last year according to fangraphs. When you factor in his defense and his age, the contract was easily justifiable.

 

[sturg33]

Also clubs that have much more money to spend, had better prospects/young players, and already had plenty of power/potential elite hitters. giving Heyward $23M didn't fit Atlanta the way it fit Chicago.

I'm genuinely curious, though: what teams were lining up to give him that? Obviously the Cubs had the highest offer, and they're doing great more in spite of him than because of him.

Reports were that the Cardinals offered him more money (~$200M) but Heyward chose the Cubs.

 

[yeezus]

Heyward was the 13th best offensive player in the NL last year according to fangraphs. When you factor in his defense and his age, the contract was easily justifiable.

Year before that, he was 30th in the NL.
And my point isn't that he isn't a good hitter. The point is he isn't elite. He's well below the top 10 of last year, and way way below the top 5. The Cubbies had Rizzo, Bryant, and Schwarber penciled into their lineup when they gave Heyward that cash. We, unfortunately, did not. It would have been a pretty damn risky contract for us, all things considered.

 

[zbhargrove]

I think Swanson and Albies will be terrific players.

I think Heyward is a terrific player.

But my point is, if Heyward isn't a good enough hitter for you folks, then I would temper my expectations of what we will get from Swanson/Albies

I would be fine if my 2B or SS hit like Heyward... not my RF