WikiLeaks leak emails from DNC that show party collusion against Bernie.

50PoundHead said:
As long as the Muslims don't come in and consume all the benefits. Lots of virulent reaction to Muslims in Denmark. I'll try to find the NY Review of Books article from a couple of months ago about it and post it.
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Not just Denmark, but all of Scandinavia, and brewing for a while in nations like the Netherlands and Belgium, too. It's been one of the bigger challenges to both their liberal ideals of freer movement of peoples, and—because of the real-world extension of that ideal—to their robust welfare models. I still think their system is more right than ours is, but that's hardly to say it's perfect, either.
 
jpx7 said:
Not just Denmark, but all of Scandinavia, and brewing for a while in nations like the Netherlands and Belgium, too. It's been one of the bigger challenges to both their liberal ideals of freer movement of peoples, and—because of the real-world extension of that ideal—to their robust welfare models. I still think their system is more right than ours is, but that's hardly to say it's perfect, either.
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It's gotten especially keen in Denmark over the past couple of years, but you're right. All of Scandinavia is having problems with growing diversity in the population.
 
50PoundHead said:
It's gotten especially keen in Denmark over the past couple of years, but you're right. All of Scandinavia is having problems with growing diversity in the population.
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I had my own problem with it in Copenhagen: the paneer they were using instead of mozzarella on "margherita" pizzas was terrible both by paneer and pizza standards.
 
50PoundHead said:
Denmark is about as socialist as you can get. Highest taxes as a percentage of GDP and one of the most comprehensive social safety nets in the world.
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Venezuela is about as socialist as you can get. A large welfare state doesn't describe socialism. Denmark is a free trade capitalist based economy in which privately owned businesses thrive. In other words, the community doesn't own the means of production or exchange. Socialism doesn't promote free trade or private business. I personally believe socialist Bernie is against free trade. Although Bernie has stated the opposite, his actions seem to contradict what he has said in the past about free trade. This is jmo, but I personally think Bernie favors a more socialist end game than the nordic model despite his rhetoric.
 
I don't know if the Clinton Team ever offered the Veep slot to Bernie, but man if we're talking unity it should have been a no brainer for a Clinton-Sanders ticket. Kaine nor Hillary have the energy that bernie brought.
 
If Hilary gave a **** about the country she would stay as far away from Bernie as possible. Good for her for not pandering to his craziness
 
sturg33 said:
The craziness is how he plans to do it
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I wanted more specifics from Sanders, to be sure, but nothing he proposed seemed crazier than Ron Paul's "the private charities will take care of it" plan.
 
weso1 said:
Venezuela is about as socialist as you can get. A large welfare state doesn't describe socialism. Denmark is a free trade capitalist based economy in which privately owned businesses thrive. In other words, the community doesn't own the means of production or exchange. Socialism doesn't promote free trade or private business. I personally believe socialist Bernie is against free trade. Although Bernie has stated the opposite, his actions seem to contradict what he has said in the past about free trade. This is jmo, but I personally think Bernie favors a more socialist end game than the nordic model despite his rhetoric.
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A strict Marxist reading might stipulate the total seizure of the means of production, but a more generic understanding of socialism just entails some co-opting of the means of production to implement more rigorous redistributive practices and thus ensure (as much as possible) freedom from material want. Denmark qualifies, even though they still practice a market-premised variant.

For what it's worth, I'm mostly against the TPP (and similar agreements), but I'm not entirely convinced we need total seizure of the means of production to achieve reasonable freedom from material want.
 
Julio3000 said:
The goldbug? Right.
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Nah man

these-days-the-american-dream-is-more-apt-to-be-2600610.png
 
jpx7 said:
A strict Marxist reading might stipulate the total seizure of the means of production, but a more generic understanding of socialism just entails some co-opting of the means of production to implement more rigorous redistributive practices and thus ensure (as much as possible) freedom from material want. Denmark qualifies, even though they still practice a market-premised variant.

For what it's worth, I'm mostly against the TPP (and similar agreements), but I'm not entirely convinced we need total seizure of the means of production to achieve reasonable freedom from material want.
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I just think that's way too broad of a definition of what constitutes a socialist state. The core of Denmark's economy is the free market capitalist strategy when it comes to trade both within and outside of the country. If Denmark were to significantly cut welfare benefits then the economy would still be ok, which is about to happen by the way. If however, Denmark were to regulate the hell out of trade and make trade more of a socialistic practice then the economy would suffer mightily.

Don't just take my word for it:

"...Denmark still qualifies as a market economy today despite its high taxes and large welfare state for a number of important reasons. As Brøns-Petersen points out, property rights are well-protected, the currency is sound, international trade is relatively free, and the regulation of business, labour, and credit is light. There are few restrictions on hiring and firing, there's no legislated minimum wage, and taxpayers are not called upon to bail out their banks.

For these kinds of reasons, Denmark scores quite well when it comes to overall economic freedom: 22nd on the Fraser Institute's Economic Freedom of the World report, and 11th on the Heritage Foundation's Index of Economic Freedom. It ranks even higher on the World Bank's "Doing Business" list, coming in at number 3..."

link
 
weso1 said:
I just think that's way too broad of a definition of what constitutes a socialist state.
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It might be too broad for your ends, but it's a pretty standard understanding of market socialism. I agree that Denmark doesn't go too far enough in some respects.
 
I think you're mixing up democratic socialism and social democracy. There are key differences. Denmark to me, and I would think most economists would agree with, is the latter, and I personally believe that Bernie is the former. It's just inaccurate to state that Denmark is about as close to socialist as you can get though, since it thrives on such a capitalistic free market.
 
weso1 said:
I think you're mixing up democratic socialism and social democracy. There are key differences. Denmark to me, and I would think most economists would agree with, is the latter, and I personally believe that Bernie is the former. It's just inaccurate to state that Denmark is about as close to socialist as you can get though, since it thrives on such a capitalistic free market.
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To be fair, I never said that "Denmark is about as close to socialist as you can get" (that was 50). All I'm saying is that Denmark incorporates elements of market-based socialism into its welfare state, which is what I personally think Sanders hopes to achieve (but, as I stated, isn't in my opinion a sufficient end-point in itself).
 
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