Hillary vs. Trump, 2016 Presidential Debates

yeezus said:
I don't think Hillary is a moderate republican at all.
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Ha....ha ha.......ha ha ha.......she is part of the Elitist establishment, she wants what is best for business as a politician. Not NeoCon levels but she is all about foreign wars and helping foreign nation building.

Bernie is a real Democrat but he is far left. Clinton is down the middle, but has a lot of things to answer for without pleading 5ths from those under her, people disappearing when they about to blow the whistle and what not. I respect what crimes she has done, but she has to own up to it to get in the position of power she is in.

She owns up, the more capable and dangerous she can become on those who wants to mess with her. She is not a nice lady. A b*tch frankly and everyone would tell you that.
 
yeezus said:
I don't think Hillary is a moderate republican at all.
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She's not. This was thoroughly debunked in another thread and it amazes me that people still repeat it, I guess not being informed of her policy positions
 
sturg33 said:
I don't think I ever claimed anything to the contrary? I'm not Reagan disciple
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I just think there is a misapplication of Keynesian economics that many on the right--this isn't aimed at you per se--contend is all about blowing up deficits ad infinitum and that is the sole domain of Democrats. Keynes urged short-term stimulus through government spending to prop up weak domestic demand. The government would do that by buying things for itself or giving money to people to buy things. He did not say "deficits don't matter." Keynes believed that once the stimulus got the budget back into balance, the government could once again cut spending. Of course, the more strident members of the Austrian school (Mises, but not Hayek) felt that any intervention by the government was bad.
 
bravesnumberone said:
Will be interesting to see how far the ratings drop for the Kaine-Pence heavyweight bout tonight.
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I can hardly wait to see what SNL does with this likely snooze-fest. They should require Kaine and Pence to wear heart rate monitors. Their pulse would probably never go above 50.

Speaking of SNL, I was kind of disappointed they put Baldwin in the Trump role instead of leaving Darrell Hammond in it.
 
Thankfully those that thought the debate wouldn't move the needle much have been very wrong so far. Right before the debate, 538 put Clinton's chances at 55% with a 1-2 point national lead, and had her losing Florida and NC, Colorado and PA getting close, and easily losing Ohio. Since, the chances have gone up to 72% with a ~4 point national lead, Florida and NC have shifted back to blue (for the time being), Colorado and PA have become much safer, and Ohio is very close again. Turns out his abysmal performance made an impact with undecideds.

Clinton baited him throughout and he took it all and then some. He's spent the last week digging himself deeper and deeper every day with things that were brought up on Monday. As Silver said, one poor debate performance wasn't likely to kill him. One poor performance and spending weeks afterwards flailing? That'll do damage. And that's exactly what he's done. He can't handle anything like a normal adult would, much less a president. It is incredible how childish he is.
 
The unusually long lull between conventions and the first debate helped Trump a lot. Once he had to speak to a national audience and without a teleprompter, no one but his supporters were fooled by his nonsense.
 
My goodness.

Trump assassinated Jeb with the "low energy" label... Pence looks like he's about to fall asleep.

If it's possible, Pence looks like he's lower energy than Jeb.
 
Hawk said:
She's not. This was thoroughly debunked in another thread and it amazes me that people still repeat it, I guess not being informed of her policy positions
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She is a centrist, like her husband and Obama; they aren't revolutionary and govern from the middle. But this election cycle, with the popularity of Sanders and Warren has caused her to appear to move an inch or two to the left. If she wins she'll probably have as many people of the left complaining as on the right, as did Obama.
 
Hawk said:
She's not. This was thoroughly debunked in another thread and it amazes me that people still repeat it, I guess not being informed of her policy positions
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i don't think it has been debunked there or here

she is centrist at best and a moderate republican at worst
 
Hillary is a liberal. Her policy positions du jour speak to that.

Still, it's a tad obtuse to ignore the fact that the Clinton brand for the last three decades has been triangulation. Look at the legislative record in the Clinton administration. Add a dash of free trade, a pinch of Wall Street and a scoop of hawkish interventionism and it's hard to avoid calling it centrism.
 
i just don't buy into the classification

she speaks like a liberal and says she is down for liberal ideas but seems she actually is more neocon
 
Julio3000 said:
Still, it's a tad obtuse to ignore the fact that the Clinton brand for the last three decades has been triangulation. Look at the legislative record in the Clinton administration. Add a dash of free trade, a pinch of Wall Street and a scoop of hawkish interventionism and it's hard to avoid calling it centrism.
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What you see as triangulation, I see more as compromise necessary for political survival. That's more pertinent to Bill as the record stands, but Hillary was a damned contortionist during the primaries.
 
Hawk said:
Yes, it was, here: http://www.chopcountry.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4984&page=20&p=337349#post337349

Hillary Clinton is a liberal.

But I'd love for either you or Runnin' to attempt to explain how she isn't - or, even better, how 'governing from the middle' (whatever that actually means) makes one a centrist.

I'm really all ears.
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Liberal =/= left. That's where the disjunction lies here, and that's where the chart you posted in the other thread is misleading (or mistakenly deploys its terms). Liberalism is the mainstream in this country—there's substantial neoliberal overlap between both establishment parties, structurally speaking, despite some surface differences—and whether you want to call it "centrist" or not, Clinton is very much firmly located within, beholden to, and a champion of that neoliberal mainstream current. She's said as much herself.
 
jpx7 said:
Liberal =/= left. That's where the disjunction lies here, and that's where the chart you posted in the other thread is misleading (or mistakenly deploys its terms). Liberalism is the mainstream in this country—there's substantial neoliberal overlap between both establishment parties, structurally speaking, despite some surface differences—and whether you want to call it "centrist" or not, Clinton is very much firmly located within, beholden to, and a champion of that neoliberal mainstream current. She's said as much herself.
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For the sake of this particular argument, in a modern context, discussing American politics, I'm fairly comfortable using liberal and leftist interchangeably. Especially when we are taking into account a full consideration of all of the parts which come together to define contemporary political ideologies (I recall you [rightly] grousing about the weight social predilections are given ... but they are nevertheless a major reality). Operating from that mindset, the chart I have referenced accurately allows us to plot Clinton's location on the American spectrum. You can call her a centrist Democrat or a moderate Democrat - but flatly applying the centrist label to her is just as egregious and sloppily incorrect to me as your discomfort towards my comments utilizing liberal as a distinguisher between left and right.

Now, to your second point, neoliberalism is only mainstream because we are a capitalist society - and, I'd argue, only the 'current' because of the recession, but that's another thread entirely. Is Clinton parts neoliberal? Broadly, yes. But so is Donald Trump. The ideology is still in its relative infancy, and, to people who aren't willing or able to pick nits amidst this kind of populist reformulation the world is cycling through, other differentiators are more practically useful.
 
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