The "Untouchable" Julio???
- Thread starter clvclv
- Start date
Oklahomabrave
Anytime Now Frankie...
I know it won't happen but trading Inciarte for Bregman would allow us to trade Albies for a 3b/C/SP.
rico43
<B>Director of Minor League Reports</B>
This would be because Bregman is a sure thing and Albies isn't?
This is a classic "grass is always greener" deal.
Oklahomabrave
Anytime Now Frankie...
I don't really think it is. I think Albies will be really good. There are very few options that I would pick over Albies.I think Bregman is, and will be better. Most of the baseball world would chose Bregman over Albies.
If we had Bregman, Albies would be the type of trade chip that could be used to help land an ace.
If you prefer Albies, don't want Inciarte traded period, or prefer that area of improvement is focused elsewhere that's fair. I certainly don't see this as an example of being down on any particular player or outlook on the future. Without doing too much I believe the future of our landscape to be fertile and plenty "green".
First off who is the heir apparent to 2b? Is it really Albies, or is it Demeritte or how about Dylan Moore, then you have already here Peterson. So is Albies really the untouchable here?
As for Mallex Smith I am not sure if I see him as a full time corner outfielder, I certainly do not see him as a better option than Ender. I do not want to see Ender traded, he is exactly the sort you build around not trade. I do not see a reason to trade Julio for another pitcher at a minor league level, not when the front office is looking to bring in 2 pitchers this offseason.
As for Mallex Smith I am not sure if I see him as a full time corner outfielder, I certainly do not see him as a better option than Ender. I do not want to see Ender traded, he is exactly the sort you build around not trade. I do not see a reason to trade Julio for another pitcher at a minor league level, not when the front office is looking to bring in 2 pitchers this offseason.
I'm not saying I would pull the trigger on it. I'm just saying it's not far off from fair value. I mean, that is not far from what Hamels got, and you could argue it's actually better in terms of top-end talent.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
I don't trade Julio now. We've made it apparent that we look to contend in the next year or so, keep him. And no, that's not a big enough package. You sell extremely high or don't sell at all.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
I wouldn't do that trade for just Teheran alone. He is the rock in our rotation. He is being undervalued because he doesn't throw super hard. I think TJ is in his near future, but then he comes back better than ever and has a few good years as a TOR starter.
bravesfanMatt
Steve Harvey'd
What are you basing that on. JT has a smooth delivery. And if goes down in the next two years then he will finish his contract on disabled list and will be a 'TOR' pitcher for another team.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
"Could be"... so we are in the part of the rebuild where we need for sure MLB talent if we are going to trade some of our few sure things. You are basically trading a young 2 SP for a prospect pitcher that may or may not even make it... a young CFer who has already shown flashes of being very good at the MLB level for an OF prospect who hasn't done anything at the MLB level and may or may not be a successful player... and then they add on a bench player. For where we are in the rebuild that could really set us back far... especially when Julio is by far the only sure thing we have in the rotation. It's actually a quite striking awful trade idea.
Yup, the Braves are past the point in the rebuild where they flip MLB talent for prospects. The only exception being, in my opinion, one of Ender or Mallex because I see them as redundant players. Some folks obviously disagree and feel having them both in the OF is a good idea, but I strongly feel their value to the Braves organization is maximized by using both as starting caliber CFers...even if one has to start for another team.
While the Braves are done with the "prospect collection phase", they aren't quite into the "contention phase" where they should start to convert excess/redundant prospects into MLB talent to fill specific holes on the roster. This "transitional phase" is probably the hardest one to manage, so they need to be very shrewd in the deals they make and be careful not to make a deal that improves the club now while hurting the club's future when they will have a real shot at contention.
Having said that, the only assets of any real value the Braves should be willing to deal are one of Mallex or Ender, and only if they bring back a player that will help a position of need both now and in the future. Bregman is such a player. Baez is such a player. Beretto and Manaea may be such players. I'm sure there are a handful more, but it will be hard to find a player like that with a team willing to let them go in exchange for a CFer. Those trade opportunities are very hard to find (they thought Olivera was one such opportunity), which is one reason why the Braves will have the most interesting offseason of any team this year.
While the Braves are done with the "prospect collection phase", they aren't quite into the "contention phase" where they should start to convert excess/redundant prospects into MLB talent to fill specific holes on the roster. This "transitional phase" is probably the hardest one to manage, so they need to be very shrewd in the deals they make and be careful not to make a deal that improves the club now while hurting the club's future when they will have a real shot at contention.
Having said that, the only assets of any real value the Braves should be willing to deal are one of Mallex or Ender, and only if they bring back a player that will help a position of need both now and in the future. Bregman is such a player. Baez is such a player. Beretto and Manaea may be such players. I'm sure there are a handful more, but it will be hard to find a player like that with a team willing to let them go in exchange for a CFer. Those trade opportunities are very hard to find (they thought Olivera was one such opportunity), which is one reason why the Braves will have the most interesting offseason of any team this year.
Which is why Coppy has to be hating that none of Wisler, Blair, Jenkins, Gant showed up as a suprise success. If you are going to trade mlb for mlb, then you have to have excess parts.
A CFer and a SP both with high potential could get you something but a CFer alone may not.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
I'd be pissed because you can't use any of those guys were quality trade bait. If Blair had a good season, Blair and Mallex/Inciarte would be a REALLY tempting offer to many teams.
Again, I am not advocating pulling the trigger on that deal. I'm just saying it isn't crazy in pure value terms. And you will always have to get unproven players in return if your goal is to eventually end up with higher-ceiling talent.
This was the point - well, that and trying to generate some discussion on a day where there wasn't much baseball to talk about. Some people are just wound so tight they can't just look at things based on merit and discuss it. Just find it odd that the consensus around here is that "we don't have enough to be competitive yet" - so when people propose adding to the big club's roster to accomplish that it's a no AND when someone proposes moves to add to the stockpile of prospects that also gets a no.
The point was that would be three Top 100 prospects for Julio and Mallex (who is somewhat expendable with Ender on board and other CF options moving through the system that should be ready well before Inciarte gets expensive).
Kinda funny how that goes, don't you think?
GovClintonTyree
<B>Vencer a Los Doyers</B>
Mm. I hear you, I'm just...unmoved. If you want our low-cost ace and a cost-controlled difference-maker CF, you better back up the truck.
Their relative goodness (and value) is evident....but I think what bothers me is to consider dealing guys like that with a mid-level budget team. You have to acquire them, develop them and persuade them to stick around - or have the value manifest when they're still cheap. That's more value than you can capture with even advanced metrics.
It's not that I have an affinity for them, it's more that there's hidden value there that you can't recapture in even a good trade.
GovClintonTyree
<B>Vencer a Los Doyers</B>
Yeah, I know. The point I was making is these (Julio and Ender) are difference-makers who are cheap. Freddie's about to get expensive (though not as expensive as if we paid full retail on the open market) and Dansby hasn't done anything at the ML level yet, although I agree early returns are very promising.
GovClintonTyree
<B>Vencer a Los Doyers</B>
I understand the dichotomy you're pointing out, but you're making the assumption that the same people are giving you both opinions. There are guys who are still in stockpile mode and there are guys like me who are very willing to spend prospects to acquire guys who fill needs and are generally proven at the big league level. I'd much rather be on Houston's side of the deal you proposed.
I will grudgingly admit lil Coppy has been successful at jump starting his farm by dealing vets and that the farm is nicely perked up. Now I'm ready to spend prospects and money on a catcher, a difference-maker 3B and some pitching that looks a lot more like Chris Archer and Drew Smyly and less like Bud Norris and Jhoulys Chacin. 'Cause I think we're on the outside of contention and as guys mature we should compete. We're probably a year away, but let's start competing!
Reading around the blogosphere, Inciarte is a very popular name in trade chatter. This chatter is obviously nothing more than idle speculation, but the idea is certainly out there, and I'm sure GMs of these teams are at least considering adding Ender for CF. It seems every team that needs a CFer has fans wondering about him.
In Jeff Sullivan's chat on FG this morning he answered a disproportionate number of Inciarte trade questions, so the idea is certainly out there:
Maikel
9:06 Does a Matz/Wheeler for Ender Inciarte trade make sense for both teams?
Jeff Sullivan
9:06 Do you mean both pitchers? Don't think the Mets would give up both pitchers
Pretty Tony
9:35 JD Martinez for Inciarte sound like the start of a deal?
Jeff Sullivan
9:35 No reason for the Braves to look for a one-year player
Hank
9:39 What would my Cardinals have to surrender to acquire Ender Inciarte? Carlos Martinez and a prospect? Ender does have 4 years of control left.
Jeff Sullivan
9:39 I wouldn't be shocked if you could get him for Martinez alone
9:40 Question is, would the Cardinals want to do that? But the Braves would love to add that sort of arm and Inciarte has probably peaked
v2micca
9:42 Why does everyone assume the Braves need to trade Inciarte? He's young, cheap, under team control for another 3 years, and its not like the Braves have a lineup of Outfield prospects knocking on the door to take his place. Unless someone is offering crazy trade deals, I say ride out his 3 fWAR per season production.
Jeff Sullivan
9:43 They don't need to trade him, but they *could* trade him, and he'd have market value, and they've got Mallex Smith around in the pipeline.
Kevin
9:44 What would you ask for in return for Ender if your Coppy? We could cash in on his high value and insert Mallex Smith in CF?
Jeff Sullivan
9:44 Cost-controlled big-league starting pitcher
Of course, if I were in charge, I'd love Inciarte, but I recognize he's probably at his best when the Braves are not. I doubt he's going to improve
If Coppy can get a guy like Carlos Martinez for Ender he needs to ship him out and let Mallex take over in CF. Anyone that wants the Braves to acquire anything even resembling a TOR pitchers needs to come to terms with the fact that the price for such a pitcher starts with Ender or Swanson. Since Mallex can mostly replace Ender, a team that needs a CFer is the most likely match.
Well, if we're discounting guys like Paulino and Tucker, then we should also discount Mallex. Because he certainly hasn't proven he's a difference-maker, and his status as a prospect was never what even Fisher's is.