Overreach

50PoundHead said:
But that runs both ways. I am in my 60s and I remember when the whole political correctness argument ran the other way. If you weren't in favor of bombing the Vietnamese back to the Stone Age, you were considered a communist sympathizer. The whole Red Scare thing was alive and well and ruined many careers in the 1950s and 1960s.

I somewhat agree with the effect of the original article. My problem is "Where does it end?" I know sturg33 will come in with his property rights argument that any business should be able to refuse any customer (and while I don't agree with that, there is an intellectual argument that supports that stance), but in reality, once you enter a free market economy that promotes the free movement of business without barriers, you make a tacit agreement to operate totally in the marketplace. It seems here is that some supposed free marketeers believe in the concept of the free market only to the extent it doesn't offend their sensibilities. I can see all sorts of enterprises using the cover of religion to justify a number of activities that will further divide this country by allowing religious (and I use the term very loosely) to basically secede from the social contract.

But there's no question that high profile confrontations should have been avoided given the volatile nature of the issue.

thethe, you better look up the definition of tyranny.
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A social contract that's being changed? And those who've advocated the change are now saying get on board or you are out? Right?

Why must thethe look up the definition of tyranny?
 
50PoundHead said:
Agree here, but we now live in a society wrought with hyperbole. It pervades our life daily. One can't say they simply enjoyed the meal. They have to tell the host that it was stupendous for fear of offending.
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As gold and dane make clear, they have no other category to use for those who don't hold to their creed. And creed it most definitely is, with it's own ethical system and definitions of right and wrong.
 
50PoundHead said:
Everyone has the freedom to believe what they want to believe, but there are--and should be--limits to how people act of those beliefs. I am not a racist, but some are. If I believe that people of a different race are ruining society, should I be allowed to chastise them and make their lives miserable. There is a distinct difference between what one believes and how one acts. Just because I don't believe that a certain stretch of road shouldn't have a 30 mph speed limit doesn't give me the right to drive 60. It's called a social contract. We all give up something to gain something else.
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Agree with everything here.
 
BedellBrave said:
A social contract that's being changed? And those who've advocated the change are now saying get on board or you are out? Right?

Why must thethe look up the definition of tyranny?
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The social contract is constantly changing. It changes every time there is a new law enacted. "We the People" have agreed to a broad set of guidelines that define our government. Does that mean that every "person" agrees with every element of that contract? Certainly not. But in order to reap the benefits of the freedoms we all enjoy, we cannot fully enjoy total liberty in our actions. Like we were all told during the Vietnam War, "America, love it or leave it." I think everyone across the spectrum has become overly sensitized to anything that makes them remotely uncomfortable and if we are going to unite as a country, that is going to have to change. If we don't, let's just end the experiment in 2026 and say it was a great 250-year run.

I believe thethe is employing the kind of hyperbole I don't like when he's using the term tyranny in this instance.
 
Back to my reason for posting the op-ed, to my leftist friends bitching about Trump and railing against Trump supporters, don't blame them, blame yourselves. You pushed too far and too fast and with little or no regard for those who aren't in lockstep with your views and you got blowback. You screwed up. And if you think doubling down, and Keith Ellison, and Stein recounts, and getting back on the Bernie bandwagon are going to be your solutions, well, I just don't think you get it.
 
I'm just guessing here...

But if Mike Pence went into a gay bar and the bar tender refused to serve him... many on here would applaud.

I too, would support the bar tender's right to refuse service.
 
50PoundHead said:
The social contract is constantly changing. It changes every time there is a new law enacted. "We the People" have agreed to a broad set of guidelines that define our government. Does that mean that every "person" agrees with every element of that contract? Certainly not. But in order to reap the benefits of the freedoms we all enjoy, we cannot fully enjoy all of our individual freedoms. Like we were all told during the Vietnam War, "America, love it or leave it." I think everyone across the spectrum has become overly sensitized to anything that makes them remotely uncomfortable and if we are going to unite as a country, that is going to have to change. If we don't, let's just end the experiment in 2026 and say it was a great 250-year run.

I believe thethe is employing the kind of hyperbole I don't like when he's using the term tyranny in this instance.
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Agreed, it changes. My point, don't make it sound like "well you agreed to this when you poured your life savings into your bakery." The "this" has changed.

And can we ever "fully enjoy all our individual freedoms" where ever and whenever we want? I think I'm free to buy non-halal meat but why should I ever think that I must be able to get it at the Muslim butcher shop?

The administration's arguments in Obergfelt and in ACA challenges (the nuns for instance) give merit to his choice.
 
sturg33 said:
I'm just guessing here...

But if Mike Pence went into a gay bar and the bar tender refused to serve him... many on here would applaud.

I too, would support the bar tender's right to refuse service.
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I wouldn't applaud. Mike Pence should drink where he wants (as long as he's wearing shirt and shoes). Who knows, he's got a look that might get him hit on.
 
" The presidential election was so close that many factors were “but-for” causes of Donald Trump’s victory. One that’s been mostly overlooked is Trump’s surprising success with religious voters "

no, the vote (+2.7M Clinton ) / election ( Trump +70 ) really wasn't that close

until I see exit poll data showing otherwise I maintain if anything this election was the marginalization of "religious voters" , their issues and their boots on the ground sway
witness, Trump's patronized wink and nod support of their causes.

Kinda gives this discussion a 2 AM college dorm room feel
 
sturg33 said:
I'm just guessing here...

But if Mike Pence went into a gay bar and the bar tender refused to serve him... many on here would applaud.

I too, would support the bar tender's right to refuse service.
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Just like they applaud the fashion designers letting Trump's wife know her money won't be accepted by them.
 
BedellBrave said:
Back to my reason for posting the op-ed, to my leftist friends bitching about Trump and railing against Trump supporters, don't blame them, blame yourselves. You pushed too far and too fast and with little or no regard for those who aren't in lockstep with your views and you got blowback. You screwed up. And if you think doubling down, and Keith Ellison, and Stein recounts, and getting back on the Bernie bandwagon are going to be your solutions, well, I just don't think you get it.
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I think seizing the means of production is the solution.
 
BedellBrave said:
Agreed, it changes. My point, don't make it sound like "well you agreed to this when you poured your life savings into your bakery." The "this" has changed.

The administration's arguments in Obergfelt and in ACA challenges (the nuns for instance) give merit to his choice.
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I don't doubt that there are business owners who are uncomfortable working with same-sex couples. I used to bartend at a biker bar and every time an African-American walked in, I got nervous that there was going to be a throw-down. Doesn't make me racist, but I sure wished those guys would have chosen another bar. And maybe county clerks should have given same-sex couples a copy of the Yellow Pages with the florist and baker sections highlighted to avoid some of the confrontations. Having always enjoyed the advantages of being a white male (and yes guys, we do have advantages), I haven't been on the other side of the equation so I'm totally unqualified to judge those individuals who sought those confrontations. No doubt they caused a backlash however and a little sensitivity may have been in order.
 
BedellBrave said:
Just like they applaud the fashion designers letting Trump's wife know her money won't be accepted by them.
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The only thing that surprises me any more is the fact that I am sometimes still surprised and the whole fashion industry reaction here is just about the most ridiculous thing I have ever witnessed.
 
jpx7 said:
I think seizing the means of production is the solution.
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Wow. I kind of figured that's where your ideology was but man is crazy to see it in writing. But I suppose you feel my stances are just as radical.
 
DaneHill said:
AA, you do realize this is exactly how gay people feel living in a straight society?
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I feel for you Dane, but you cannot force people to do something they don't want. They say they will make a cake but not put anything else on it that goes against their beliefs. Personally I would baked the cake with what you want because it does not hurt me in any way. You just have to respect people and their opinions. Being black, I get dissed even today in this town and you know what, I would and have done the same thing you've mentioned, go elsewhere.

Just like Jews and swatzikas

Just like Muslims and pork

Just like Mormons and their many taboos

The Democrats will not touch those three things but if it is the gay community they will be all up in arms about it and will punish you if you do not do what they want you to do against your wishes.

Pushing acceptance in society too quickly will make it worse, not better.
 
thethe said:
Wow. I kind of figured that's where your ideology was but man is crazy to see it in writing. But I suppose you feel my stances are just as radical.
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Sadly, I've old enough and have visited enough places in this world in my life to know, it ain't what many of the Stein/Bernie folk think it is...
 
BedellBrave said:
That might be the very bloody case many in tears now will take. I hope not.
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And further move the goalposts to the left. If they do that they will continue to lose more voters. Problem is the 'educational' institutions in this country and brainwashing the youth to think this is the just way.
 
BedellBrave said:
Sadly, I've old enough and have visited enough places in this world in my life to know, it ain't what many of the Stein/Bernie folk think it is...
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Of course it isnt. There are modern examples as well to show just how much that system fails. Nothing happens in a vacuum like they teach in college.
 
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