Braves trade Mallex and Simmons to M's for Gohara and Burrows

[Russ2dollas]

Yes. That's the general idea behind position adjustments on defense.

His bat would be even worse in a corner. I assume u think his defense would mitigate that.

This is just an agree to disagree. I don't think lf d matters as much.

If I could get 3 Enders then I don't want an of full of Enders. Great d but that's 3 places in my line up I want an upgrade

 

[thethe]

I don't completely discount guys in the bottom half of the Top 100 list. But they are worth significantly less that the ones further up the list (on average). And it is worth pointing out that with the exception of Swanson, our very best prospects (Albies, Allard, Soroka, Acuna, Maitan, Anderson) have not been acquired by trade.

I would add that Gohara has yet to make a Top 100, much less a Top 50. Maybe he will. But he ain't there yet.

Allard/soroka/anderson could be considered acquired slightly by trade.

 

[thethe]

Yes. That's the general idea behind position adjustments on defense.

Legit question. Can you prove this somehow?

 

[thewupk]

His bat would be even worse in a corner. I assume u think his defense would mitigate that.

This is just an agree to disagree. I don't think lf d matters as much.

If I could get 3 Enders then I don't want an of full of Enders. Great d but that's 3 places in my line up I want an upgrade

His actual offense would be the same. His offense compared to those of the same position would change but that comparison doesn't factor into WAR. But yes someone that is an average defensive CFer is generally a good or better defensive player in the corners.

To me defense matters all over the field because balls are put in play all over the field. Some positions have more chances and thus are more important but defense does matter.

 

[thewupk]

Legit question. Can you prove this somehow?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/positional-adjustment/

I have personally not done any analysis to prove or disprove their numbers but I do trust the results.

 

[Southcack77]

His actual offense would be the same. His offense compared to those of the same position would change but that comparison doesn't factor into WAR. But yes someone that is an average defensive CFer is generally a good or better defensive player in the corners.

To me defense matters all over the field because balls are put in play all over the field. Some positions have more chances and thus are more important but defense does matter.

Defense is less important than offense in my book, because there simply are more guys who can play defense and hit .230 then there are guys who can hit 35 HRs. And you aren't going to win many games with three light hitting OFs who can field their position at a high level.

I think ultimately it is an argument over very little. Neither Mallex nor Kemp nor Markakis is really an ideal player for a contending team.

The entire argument is really over whether Mallex was likely to improve his stock in AAA or as a fourth OF and whether the return they got was a good one.

I think they sold at the appropriate time. The return is well beyond what I have an opinion on. The only thing I can say is that apparently there are significant number of scouts, professional baseball writers, and fangraphs contributors, among others, that think it wasn't a bad acquisition. Time will tell.

I tend to like the story of a young player getting more mature, reshaping his body, and having a big spike in performance. But he's a long way from Atlanta.

 

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

His actual offense would be the same. His offense compared to those of the same position would change but that comparison doesn't factor into WAR. But yes someone that is an average defensive CFer is generally a good or better defensive player in the corners.

To me defense matters all over the field because balls are put in play all over the field. Some positions have more chances and thus are more important but defense does matter.

I feel like defense should matter more with specific team compositions (flyball v groundball pitchers). Like Colorado needs great outfielders or something.

Unfortunately our pitchers and major near-ready prospects seem like flyball pitchers (I think? Wisler and Teheran and Colon and Folty and Dickey all seem to be, but I dunno enough about Blair or Newcomb) with Neck and Kemp in the corners.

 

[smootness]

My preference is for quality over quantity. That's why I was never impressed by the FO (and their acolytes around here) beating their chests over building up such a "deep" farm system. So far it looks like all of that "depth" is going to end up playing on the waiver wire merry-go-round (assuming they ever make a 40-man roster).

This just isn't true. Swanson, Inciarte, Newcomb, Fried, Wisler, Touki, Peterson, Riley, the ability to add both Wentz and Muller...all acquired either directly or clearly indirectly in a trade.

 

[Southcack77]

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/positional-adjustment/

I have personally not done any analysis to prove or disprove their numbers but I do trust the results.

If he moved to LF, would his possibly being an "elite" LF defender outweigh the positional decrease in rating that resulted from moving to a non-premium position?

and how would that be counteracted by his being a much more below average hitter in LF than he would be in CF?

 

[thethe]

This just isn't true. Swanson, Inciarte, Newcomb, Fried, Wisler, Touki, Peterson, Riley, the ability to add both Wentz and Muller...all acquired either directly or clearly indirectly in a trade.

The braves have acquired plenty high ceiling talent via trade. It cannot be denied.

 

[thewupk]

Defense is less important than offense in my book, because there simply are more guys who can play defense and hit .230 then there are guys who can hit 35 HRs. And you aren't going to win many games with three light hitting OFs who can field their position at a high level.

I think ultimately it is an argument over very little. Neither Mallex nor Kemp nor Markakis is really an ideal player for a contending team.

The entire argument is really over whether Mallex was likely to improve his stock in AAA or as a fourth OF and whether the return they got was a good one.

I think they sold at the appropriate time. The return is well beyond what I have an opinion on. The only thing I can say is that apparently there are significant number of scouts, professional baseball writers, and fangraphs contributors, among others, that think it wasn't a bad acquisition. Time will tell.

I tend to like the story of a young player getting more mature, reshaping his body, and having a big spike in performance. But he's a long way from Atlanta.

There are tipping points to where no matter how good of a defender you are that you can't hit enough to be a regular player. To counter that there are hitters who are so bad defensively that playing the field negates any offense they provide. They did find a way to fix that with the designated hitter. I'm not sure if I would call defense less important but it is less valuable. A good hitter with average defense is going to be more valuable than an average hitter with good defense.

 

[thethe]

If he moved to LF, would his possibly being an "elite" LF defender outweigh the positional decrease in rating that resulted from moving to a non-premium position?

and how would that be counteracted by his being a much more below average hitter in LF than he would be in CF?

The thing is that's it'd not an absolute measure of the players individual ability. It''s value for a season dependent on the league so it's not the perfect insight into x players ability.

 

[thewupk]

If he moved to LF, would his possibly being an "elite" LF defender outweigh the positional decrease in rating that resulted from moving to a non-premium position?

and how would that be counteracted by his being a much more below average hitter in LF than he would be in CF?

1) Yes that's the general idea. Any advantage a good CF would have by going to left or right would be balanced out by the decrease in positional adjustment

2) WAR doesn't compare offense against positions but instead across all players in the league. If you are a 100 WRC+ (average hitter) in center then you would still be a 100 WRC+ hitter in left or right.

 

[thethe]

There are tipping points to where no matter how good of a defender you are that you can't hit enough to be a regular player. To counter that there are hitters who are so bad defensively that playing the field negates any offense they provide. They did find a way to fix that with the designated hitter. I'm not sure if I would call defense less important but it is less valuable. A good hitter with average defense is going to be more valuable than an average hitter with good defense.

I think being a bad hitter impacts a team much more than a bad fielder at a non middle of the field position. Frankly I don't think it's close. To me Kemp provided a whole lot more value last year than his WAR indicated and it goes back to the same argument we had a few weeks ago where you agreed that defensive value is not great right now.

 

[Southcack77]

There are tipping points to where no matter how good of a defender you are that you can't hit enough to be a regular player. To counter that there are hitters who are so bad defensively that playing the field negates any offense they provide. They did find a way to fix that with the designated hitter. I'm not sure if I would call defense less important but it is less valuable. A good hitter with average defense is going to be more valuable than an average hitter with good defense.

You said it better than I did.

 

[thewupk]

The thing is that's it'd not an absolute measure of the players individual ability. It''s value for a season dependent on the league so it's not the perfect insight into x players ability.

That is true. But that is also how we judge players. How they played against their peers is it not?

 

[thethe]

1) Yes that's the general idea. Any advantage a good CF would have by going to left or right would be balanced out by the decrease in positional adjustment

2) WAR doesn't compare offense against positions but instead across all players in the league. If you are a 100 WRC+ (average hitter) in center then you would still be a 100 WRC+ hitter in left or right.

Doesn't dWAR isolate positions?

 

[thethe]

That is true. But that is also how we judge players. How they played against their peers is it not?

I think a down year/injuries for certain players can impact value relative to league and mask the true value of a player.

 

[Southcack77]

1) Yes that's the general idea. Any advantage a good CF would have by going to left or right would be balanced out by the decrease in positional adjustment

2) WAR doesn't compare offense against positions but instead across all players in the league. If you are a 100 WRC+ (average hitter) in center then you would still be a 100 WRC+ hitter in left or right.

I think #2 is perhaps part of the reason why dWar seems out of whack.

 

[thewupk]

I think being a bad hitter impacts a team much more than a bad fielder at a non middle of the field position. Frankly I don't think it's close. To me Kemp provided a whole lot more value last year than his WAR indicated and it goes back to the same argument we had a few weeks ago where you agreed that defensive value is not great right now.

First I don't believe I said it's not great. But it's certainly not perfect or close to it like offensive evaluation is.

In simple terms of 'bad' then yes given other things are equal a bad hitter will impact a team more than a bad fielder. They simply have more opportunities to be bad than a fielder does. The problem with that line of thinking is there are many varying degrees of 'bad' and all other adjectives we can assign players.

I would rather look at players on how many runs they produce while they are playing. Because runs is a number and math is fun.