I gave DJT a chance, now I'm out

nsacpi said:
At its core there is a defensible part of The Donald's decision on immigration and refugees: that there be a freeze on entrants from some parts of the world or certain countries due to the conditions there.

At the same time there are multiple levels where what he did is objectionable.

1) Administratively. This was rushed through apparently without the parts of government responsible for its implementation having a chance to review it. The result has been chaos. And possibly tragedy and suffering, as for example the case of the Christian family that landed in Philadelphia but ended up taking a plane back to Qatar.

2) Policy details. It should have been made clear from the start that this did not apply to legal permanent residents. I also happen to believe that the vetting procedures for the seven affected countries are already sufficiently rigorous, but this is something reasonable people can disagree on.

3) Morally. I don't think this is included in the executive order, but Trump has said he specifically wants to help Christians in Syria. Now, there are circumstances where it is morally right to focus your efforts to help specific religious minorities who are being persecuted. But the situation in Syria is one where all groups are suffering, more or less equally. In those circumstances, I think it is morally wrong to single out one group as the one you are going to focus your efforts on.
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I'm afraid this may be a pattern of the whole Trump regime, long on talk, scattershot on ideas and with poorly thought out administration. Of course, it's hard to plan for something when DT himself probably doesn't know what's coming next.
 
mqt said:
I thought you were the one who literally posted the explanation for the discrepancy, which seemingly had very little to do with any policy Obama enacted. I think we all agree that some form of background check should be done, and if Christian refugees cannot follow that process, I agree we should look for solutions, but it hardly seems like a ban.
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"...when you have been running a refugee program for years, and you have accepted 10,612 Sunni refugees and 56 Christians, and it is obvious why and obvious how to fix it, and nothing is done to fix it—well, the results speak more loudly than speeches, laws, intentions or excuses. In effect, we make it almost impossible for Christian refugees to get here..."

Link
 
a truly sickening 36 hours and counting in American History

and any agent who isn't following the court order should be thrown in ****ing jail
 
gilesfan said:
Make us safer, how? There are far greater threats to us than scary muslims.
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the march to fascism from Bannon down and through the reports of agents not complying with the law scares me way more than any muslim or terrorist
 
Why wasn't the Obama administration's 6 month pause of the Iraqi refugee program or his reversal on the Cuban policy which hurt many, protested much in these parts? Shouldn't we all seek to be more consistent?
 
You know the answer to that Bedell. This isn't about issues. This is about trump and in the whole the movement away from liberalism in the western world.
 
goldfly said:
a truly sickening 36 hours and counting in American History

and any agent who isn't following the court order should be thrown in ****ing jail
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It'd be easier to take you seriously if you didn't likewise start a thread that praised a man for doing the same thing
 
[video=youtube;WkZ5e94QnWk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkZ5e94QnWk[/video]
 
BedellBrave said:
Why wasn't the Obama administration's 6 month pause of the Iraqi refugee program or his reversal on the Cuban policy which hurt many, protested much in these parts? Shouldn't we all seek to be more consistent?
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“My policy is similar to what President Obama did in 2011 when he banned visas for refugees from Iraq for six months.”
—President Trump, statement on executive order, Jan. 29, 2017

In justifying his controversial executive order halting travelers from seven majority-Muslim countries, President Trump claimed that President Barack Obama did the same thing in 2011. But the comparison is a bit facile.

So what’s the difference with Trump’s action?

First, Obama responded to an actual threat — the discovery that two Iraqi refugees had been implicated in bomb-making in Iraq that had targeted U.S. troops. (Iraq, after all, had been a war zone.) Under congressional pressure, officials decided to reexamine all previous refugees and also impose new screening procedures, which led to a slowdown in processing new applications. Trump, by contrast, issued his executive order without any known triggering threat. (His staff has pointed to attacks unrelated to the countries named in his order.)

Second, Obama did not announce there was a ban on visa applications. In fact, as seen in Napolitano’s answer to Collins, administration officials danced around that question. There was certainly a lot of news reporting that visa applications had been slowed to a trickle. But the Obama administration never said it was their policy to halt all applications. Even so, the delays did not go unnoticed, so there was a lot of critical news reporting at the time about the angst of Iraqis waiting for approval.

Third, Obama’s policy did not prevent all citizens of that country, including green-card holders, from traveling to the United States. Trump’s policy is much more sweeping, though officials have appeared to pull back from barring permanent U.S. residents.

We have sought comment from the White House and also from Obama administration officials and so may update this if more information becomes available. But so far this is worthy of at least Two Pinocchios.
 
Remember when the MSM decided Ron Paul was too extreme to waste time covering him? Dr Paul was the president we needed and Trump is the president we deserve. Most of you gladly voted for authoritarian pieces of ****. You voted our basic freedoms away long before Trump got elected. I dont care if you want to give up your rights but dont **** with mine. Dont pretend to care about immigrants when you dont give a **** about swat teams raping and pillaging poor minority communites. Dont pretend you give a **** about the constitution when you actively vote away other peoples rights. Constitutionality and liberty dont change. The whole point of a constitution is so the majority cant impose immoral laws on the minority. I dont care if 99.99999% of people vote to regulate my body or tell me what i can do in the privacy of my own home. Honestly people like that are no different than muslims trying to impose sharia law on other people.

Why cant we have just 1 state for those of us who want to live in a free society? Preferably not one that gets run over by a hurricane evey year. You can even buils a wall all the way around it jusy on case anyone gets tired of being free and tries to escape to the safety of your dranconian laws.
 
goldfly said:
“My policy is similar to what President Obama did in 2011 when he banned visas for refugees from Iraq for six months.”
—President Trump, statement on executive order, Jan. 29, 2017

In justifying his controversial executive order halting travelers from seven majority-Muslim countries, President Trump claimed that President Barack Obama did the same thing in 2011. But the comparison is a bit facile.

So what’s the difference with Trump’s action?

First, Obama responded to an actual threat — the discovery that two Iraqi refugees had been implicated in bomb-making in Iraq that had targeted U.S. troops. (Iraq, after all, had been a war zone.) Under congressional pressure, officials decided to reexamine all previous refugees and also impose new screening procedures, which led to a slowdown in processing new applications. Trump, by contrast, issued his executive order without any known triggering threat. (His staff has pointed to attacks unrelated to the countries named in his order.)

Second, Obama did not announce there was a ban on visa applications. In fact, as seen in Napolitano’s answer to Collins, administration officials danced around that question. There was certainly a lot of news reporting that visa applications had been slowed to a trickle. But the Obama administration never said it was their policy to halt all applications. Even so, the delays did not go unnoticed, so there was a lot of critical news reporting at the time about the angst of Iraqis waiting for approval.

Third, Obama’s policy did not prevent all citizens of that country, including green-card holders, from traveling to the United States. Trump’s policy is much more sweeping, though officials have appeared to pull back from barring permanent U.S. residents.

We have sought comment from the White House and also from Obama administration officials and so may update this if more information becomes available. But so far this is worthy of at least Two Pinocchios.
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"Fact checking" is funny at times - as if the fact checkers know no bias. Case in point ^^^

1. The countries in question in this current ham-fisted eo are the very ones the Obama administration targeted as potential threats and can we say Ohio State Attack? Link.

2. Oh, so the Obama administration was just more quiet and that made the press slower to realize what was going on before they got all into the story? Wait did they really get into the story and were there huge protests, ever?

3. Umm, okay.

Fact checking unfortunately is often just carrying water for your favorite team.
 
BedellBrave said:
"Fact checking" is funny at times - as if the fact checkers know no bias. Case in point ^^^

1. The countries in question in this current ham-fisted eo are the very ones the Obama administration targeted as potential threats and can we say Ohio State Attack? Link.

2. Oh, so the Obama administration was just more quiet and that made the press slower to realize what was going on before they got all into the story? Wait did they really get into the story and were there huge protests, ever?

3. Umm, okay.

Fact checking unfortunately is often just carrying water for your favorite team.
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I don't know. I find the both the external circumstances and the internal processes different enough to blunt the BUT OBAMA DID IT defense. I'm surprised that you don't. Another point that's worth mentioning is that there was an FBI investigation that involved an international conspiracy to use stateside refugees to send weapons back to Iraq. That's materially different than the threat from a self-radicalized and self-described "lone wolf."

Whether Obama's action was right or wrong, I will say that his administration earned the benefit of the doubt on a few counts that the current one has not. Is Trump going to get less slack? Absolutely. I think you have to concede that, at least in part, he's reaping the whirlwind for the injudicious and inflammatory language that he's used for 18 months.
 
BedellBrave said:
Why wasn't the Obama administration's 6 month pause of the Iraqi refugee program or his reversal on the Cuban policy which hurt many, protested much in these parts? Shouldn't we all seek to be more consistent?
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Maybe because the details aren't the same? And it wasn't handled like this ****show? Just spitballing here.
 
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