Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Absolutely. Unequivocally. I'd be genuinely flabbergasted if you disagreed.
The Trump Presidency
- Thread starter The Tariff King
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Absolutely. Unequivocally. I'd be genuinely flabbergasted if you disagreed.
Well, I disagree.
Completely and entirely.
Just because the distribution of wealth in America is significantly different than in Russia doesn't necessarily mean that the same dynamics aren't at play in terms of who wields the greatest share of power in the sphere of political influence.
Russians call it oligarchy, the Koreans call it chaebol, the Japanese called it keiretsu ... it's something that we've seen happen in rapidly 're-developing' economies.
It's not a system of government, it's a point where the political economy and actual economy cross borders.
You are too trusting if you don't believe the same variety of mutual curtsying exists here. Maybe it's hyper-advanced in America, but it still exists.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
That our current political state of play depends largely on the good graces of the hyper-monied elite is not something I'd take issue with.
That the relationship is directly analogous to Russia is not.
Trump's not going to jail Tom Steyer. Obama didn't put David Koch in a cage for a show trial and then exile him. We may be more in the thrall of the Mercers, Koches, Adelsons, Steyers, and Soroses than we'd like, but we're not an autocracy enforced by the state security services.
Whatever the wheezing weaknesses of our status quo, we still have a functioning party system with free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, and a free press that reflects a diversity of opinion.
Those things don't exist in Putin's Russia. Russian "oligarchs" today exist at the sufferance of the guy at the top. They are free to get richer and wield their power and influence only to the extent that it doesn't threaten Putin. Witness Prokhorov, Khodorkovsky, et. al. Witness Gusinsky and Berezovsky. Play ball and stay rich. Wander off the reservation and face the consequences.
One guy has been in power in Russia for 16 years. The oligarchs that play ball with him are fat and happy. The ones that don't are dispossessed, dead, or living overseas. The new crop of elites are joined at the hip to Putin. The old ones kiss the ring or pay the price. Is this something you'd dispute?
What oligarchs in Russia are anti-Putin?
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
Because the federal government has no constitutional basis to prohibit drugs?
Let me ask you this, since your a police officer, is it legal to hold someone for 7 days with no probable cause, no chance to see a judge or make a phone call, without charging them with a crime, in a cell with only a metal bed with no padding and no toilet? How about locking a man in a scalding hot shower until he is literally boiled alive? Is that legal?
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
"We are now of the belief that this model can greatly benefit the Putin Government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitment to success," Manafort wrote in the 2005 memo to Deripaska. The effort, Manafort wrote, "will be offering a great service that can re-focus, both internally and externally, the policies of the Putin government."
But working for Deripaska =/= working or Putin.
The AP article also suggests that this work, reported as worth $10M/year, was not reported under the Foreign Agents Registration Act.
But working for Deripaska =/= working or Putin.
The AP article also suggests that this work, reported as worth $10M/year, was not reported under the Foreign Agents Registration Act.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
Will nobody stand up to Putin in his march toward Korea?
I never claimed the two political circumstances were directly analogous. I think that's fairly obvious. However, it's disingenuous to proceed as though there is no comparison to be made at all between the power struggles of the American/Russian bourgeoisie (Marxist variety) and their respective governments. Obama may not have put polonium in David Koch's coffee, but I wouldn't characterize Obama era policy decisions made in relation to enterprises the Koch Brothers had ties to as particularly friendly. Then again, I wouldn't expect them to be after the brothers had spent somewhere in the neighborhood of ~$100 million dollars to try and keep the former President out of office.
There is a de facto balance of power between industry and government in the United States.
And, yes, I'd dispute your view of the Russian power structure as it exists in relation to Putin. Vladimir doesn't just sit at the top of the pyramid and dictate to the oligarchy. There was a consolidation of power and it came at Putin's kind request - not command. Keep that in mind. As for your Prokhorov's ... well, they challenged Putin's (and thereby the collective oligarchical fraternity's) power directly. That's far different than 'wandering off the reservation'.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
"Incidental collection is not equivalent to government-directed surveillance of an American citizen." - Sen. Lindsey Graham
This would seem to invite the question of why Rep. Nunes considers it his job to report to the executive branch instead of performing oversight of it.
To say nothing of the fact that he stated that it was legal.
You know, I hope this wasn't a product for one of those "illegal leaks" that we've heard so much about. That would be, to coin a term, sad.
Trump's approval numbers are going down fast. His disapproval marching upwards.
I wonder how long he's gonna play the rigged polls card before some in his base start turning on him. Anecdotal but I know some diehards with him from the beginning already not happy with Trumpcare and the tweets about being wiretapped.
I wonder how long he's gonna play the rigged polls card before some in his base start turning on him. Anecdotal but I know some diehards with him from the beginning already not happy with Trumpcare and the tweets about being wiretapped.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Forgive me for thinking that you are making a direct analog here. It seems fairly evident.
As for Vova's relationship to his boyars, show me an anti-Putin oligarch or one who has bucked the boss and maintained his place and maybe we can further this conversation.
The old Yeltsin "Family" was divided into those who would play ball and those who would not. Their respective fates are a matter of public record. The latest breed are Putin's men, and they maintain their position at his sufferance.
Again, provide me a counter-example and maybe we have something to talk about.
I agree with this. How is an act like this incidental?
A direct analogue would be: Putin enjoys the same relationship with his titans of industry as American Presidents do with theirs.
I asked how it was materially different, the inference being that there is some difference the question of which is magnitude.
The president pledged not to reverse Russia's controversial privatizations of the 1990s, in which valuable state enterprises were sold at fire-sale prices to insiders--rigged auctions in which most of the so-called oligarchs at the table made their fortunes.
In return, Putin asked them to support his plans to streamline taxes and gain Russian admission to the World Trade Organization. And he got that support, as well as an unusual promise to uphold Russia's "state" interests.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Yup, by pointing the fire at himself
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/devin-nunes-donald-trump-surveillance-obama-236366
Democratic Rep. David Cicilline knocked Nunes on Twitter for his decision to brief the White House on his findings — noting that Nunes is leading a congressional investigation into possible collusion between the Trump team and Russia.
“Investigators are not supposed to ‘brief’ the folks being investigated,” the Rhode Island congressman said.