Does it matter??

T

TheBravos

Boras' Client
Ok...the new park is here Braves management. Now that the hoopla is over...attendance is back to where it normally is and so is the Braves record.

Braves management...you need A LOT of help. I can understand why you "tried" to build empty excitement for this team coming into a new park. The shine is off the new penny, attendance is back to where it was and the team is just as bad as last year (for the most part). You aren't fooling even the dumbest fan at this point.

Braves management...as much talent as there is in the minor leagues right now...we really need twice that. For the love of God, quit getting all of these vets that will make us "just" good enough to miss out on the elite top draft picks!! We should be picking back to back #1s. Please save us to the dog and pony show and just trade ANYONE not named Freddie Dansby or Folty on the current team that can bring us major building blocks back in return. Hey I loooove Ender, but if there is a Eaton deal out there....take it.

I can live with us being bad by design, that serves a purpose. I can't live with us being "kinda" bad by design that serves NO purpose.
 
I like this post. It should really be in the surrealism department.

I agree with the basic point. Which is we have a front office of hopelessly bad spinning. Spin has acquired a bad name. From practitioners like our front office. To be effective it must be subtle and somewhat plausible. And not so easily caricatured. The stuff about the girl everyone wants to dance with has been priceless. Pricelessly idiotic.

And then you have the blather about Aybar's bat off-setting the loss of Simmons' glove. Do any of these people stop to consider what they are saying.

And then you have the whole Swanson fiasco. No the front office did not run a careful analysis of what calling him up would mean for jersey sales and other revenue streams. There is a public record of what transpired provided by our own GM. One day the two senior John's approached John Junior and said why don't we try this. And that's what happened. It is symptomatic of a dysfunctional decision-making process.
 
Coppy has gotten flack and he "has" made some bone headed trades (along with some good ones). I full heartedly believe he would tear this team down bare bones and full rebuild if he had his way...the Johns wouldn't have it.
 
TheBravos said:
Coppy has gotten flack and he "has" made some bone headed trades (along with some good ones). I full heartedly believe he would tear this team down bare bones and full rebuild if he had his way...the Johns wouldn't have it.
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The one skill that "Coppy" has demonstrated in abundance is throwing his former and current (in a rather subtle way) bosses under the bus. In a way I admire that, but suspect it is going to cost him. And no I'm not inclined to give him credit for the good moves while blaming the old men for the bad ones.
 
I am all for the idea of spending all resources on the future, but I don't think ownership was on board with spending $50 million on kids that won't help the bottom line for a while. If Liberty went to the FO and said they could have x amount of money to help build the 2017 roster, I don't see the issue in trying to find some pieces that might help this year even if it's just to flip later.
 
If this were basketball where a top draft pick makes so much difference I would be mad about this not going all in and dumping everyone strategy. But in baseball, the top draft pick is not that big of a deal. And I do think the front office factors in that a decent team will keep the attendance related revenue streaming better.

I was mainly pissed that we didn't lose one more game last year. I liked the draft last year. I did want Lewis, but I did not want Senzel (seems I was wrong on that one), but after we skipped Lewis and then picked up Wentz and Muller I was happy. I mainly have loved our international signings. Those and the Shelby Miller trade have insured that our rebuild will be decent. Coppy just can't afford any more Hector Olivera type mistakes.

The record so far this year is no big deal. We'd be over .500 if we had just played better defense. And some of the bad breaks are just statistical corrections from all the great breaks we kept getting down the stretch last year. I'm not even worried about Dansby, once his BABIP gets back to normal so will his average.

If the big league team is pissing you off, go watch Rome or Gwinnett, that's my plan! I wish I lived closer to Mississippi.
 
Eyeman said:
If the big league team is pissing you off, go watch Rome or Gwinnett, that's my plan! I wish I lived closer to Mississippi.
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The early returns on the farm are positive. Last year we had mediocre talent in AAA. This year is better at that level, which means more reinforcement for the major league team within the next year. But we need to be patient and realistic. The talent is spread out throughout the system. Most of it is some ways from the majors. And being realistic means realizing that there will be some struggles even for very good young players as they move up. We're seeing it with Swanson and to some extent Acuna so far this year. That's part of the process. We just need to hang in there.
 
Eyeman said:
If this were basketball where a top draft pick makes so much difference I would be mad about this not going all in and dumping everyone strategy. But in baseball, the top draft pick is not that big of a deal. And I do think the front office factors in that a decent team will keep the attendance related revenue streaming better.

I was mainly pissed that we didn't lose one more game last year. I liked the draft last year. I did want Lewis, but I did not want Senzel (seems I was wrong on that one), but after we skipped Lewis and then picked up Wentz and Muller I was happy. I mainly have loved our international signings. Those and the Shelby Miller trade have insured that our rebuild will be decent. Coppy just can't afford any more Hector Olivera type mistakes.

The record so far this year is no big deal. We'd be over .500 if we had just played better defense. And some of the bad breaks are just statistical corrections from all the great breaks we kept getting down the stretch last year. I'm not even worried about Dansby, once his BABIP gets back to normal so will his average.

If the big league team is pissing you off, go watch Rome or Gwinnett, that's my plan! I wish I lived closer to Mississippi.
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I just hope when the trade deadline comes we DO trade these vets and let guys like Wisler and Blair pitch.

I am not sold on either of those guys, but they have been given proper time at this point (by the trade deadline). They need MLB experience, because we will have other guys up soon enough.
 
TheBravos said:
Ok...the new park is here Braves management. Now that the hoopla is over...attendance is back to where it normally is and so is the Braves record.

Braves management...you need A LOT of help. I can understand why you "tried" to build empty excitement for this team coming into a new park. The shine is off the new penny, attendance is back to where it was and the team is just as bad as last year (for the most part). You aren't fooling even the dumbest fan at this point.

Braves management...as much talent as there is in the minor leagues right now...we really need twice that. For the love of God, quit getting all of these vets that will make us "just" good enough to miss out on the elite top draft picks!! We should be picking back to back #1s. Please save us to the dog and pony show and just trade ANYONE not named Freddie Dansby or Folty on the current team that can bring us major building blocks back in return. Hey I loooove Ender, but if there is a Eaton deal out there....take it.

I can live with us being bad by design, that serves a purpose. I can't live with us being "kinda" bad by design that serves NO purpose.
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I've been saying this for the better part of two years.

The dog and pony show for the average fan in support of the new park hurts the efficiency of the rebuild and MAY jeopardize the rebuild long term if too many mistakes are made.

The FO has made some good moves with the Ender/Swanson deal being by far the best. And not every deal (or deal not made) will work out. BUT, some deals that seem to work because it improves the short term in effect don't work long term because it doesn't fit with a rebuild philosophy.

Take the Kemp deal for instance. In the short term you get legit ML RH power to install in a line-up that was too heavily LH. You shed yourself of an unwanted property. You get a flawed ML player who will at least fill a hole at the ML level everyday. However, you also tie a position on the 25/40 up on a player who isn't part of the long term, who's upside is extremely limited and cost is high limiting his trade value, you tie up dollars that could be used elsewhere in the acquisition and development of talent who will potentially be part of the long term or used to trade for that talent.

The problem IMO has always been the whole philosophy of a reload or short rebuild, likely driven by the needs of the new park. If the FO would have really been rebuilding in strategy and tactics from the beginning, then there would have been no Markakis, no Kemp, no AJ, no Aybar (although Simmons would have still been traded), no HO (although Wood would have still likely been traded, jut not part of an HO acquisition), the Kimbrel inclusion would have been rethought, etc.

It's easy to try to re-write history after the fact by saying you would have never done something that history says didn't work. It's harder to avoid those mistakes before they are made. However, a coherent and logical strategy would have created a framework to test all moves against and this FO has been all over the place in regards to strategy and tactics.
 
I know, I just dont understand why the Braves just dont just come out and say they are going to be terrible and that no one should go to the games because winning doesnt matter to them. Boggles my mind.
 
cajunrevenge said:
I know, I just dont understand why the Braves just dont just come out and say they are going to be terrible and that no one should go to the games because winning doesnt matter to them. Boggles my mind.
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That's stating the obvious.

I'm sorry....we are just one player away from making the playoffs...we are almost there!!!! Does that make you feel better?

No...sorry....just not the case. We might as well bring up young players to develop that people love to watch and are excited about like Swanson. Attendance went up and because people know they are young...loosing is somewhat expected. Granted, I wasn't a big fan of bringing him up early...they are doing both. Starting a good player's clock early AND still using vets.

My point is....the team is going to be bad either way. They are definitely going to start ANY good players clock early because the team still needs talent anyway. Why not loose the vets and let some of the young guys get experience. In all, it probabaly wouldn't be more than a 10 game difference.

Do you think it really matters if a team wins 58 or 68??? Only if it's a young team...otherwise with vets...it's spinning your wheels.

I also remember reading that someone above mentioning that it doesn't really matter if you are #1 or #5. It absolutely matters. If not for getting the exact guy you want....there is also a huge difference in slot money and also for International. So...heck yes...having the highest pick possible matters.
 
I think you are playing with fire when you stop actively trying to win games. It sets in a culture of losing and I think that's how you become like what the Royals were for many years. It sends a bad message to the players and a malaise sets in where they really just stop caring.

In a vacuum I agree with most of what people say about delaying service time but it's not in a vacuum. We aren't privy to every detail that goes into these decisions and the human aspect of them matters.

If we aren't actively trying to win then I tho m it's going to be hard to one day flip the switch and start trying to win. We will have raised our prospects on a culture of intentionally losing where winning didn't matter. That's not you train players to be winners.
 
I am not at all saying don't try to win. Giving young guys experience to build helps you win quicker.

Look at this team. Half the guys won't even be here next year. How many place holders do we have? What does that gain us? How many wins? Everyone including management knew this team would have a loosing record unless some kind of miracle happened.

The games you win with vets, you will loose the next year as young guys get experience . The will have some growing pains (like Dansby), which is normal. Why not let them get that in a lost year?

This is a lost year...it's more shinier looking than last year, but it's not much different. Look at Folty. He HAD to get MLB experience. It looks like he's about to put it together. Most of these young pitchers will be the same way. By giving them experience in a lost year, it might gain us 20 wins in years to come.
 
So your on the other inside of the fence as most people here and want to call up the prospects service time be damned?
 
cajunrevenge said:
So your on the other inside of the fence as most people here and want to call up the prospects service time be damned?
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I am not very big on that. I imagine they will do that for the most part anyway. I think the big names that matter will be up anyway (as you can see players jumping levels in the minors). We also have some guys that are out (or almost out) of options that really need a good look.
 
Why keep Freeman or Folty then? If we're not trying to be competitive anytime soon, they only hurt us as we shoot for the top pick.

Teams don't go from #1 pick to competitive overnight. The veterans are just placeholders.

It just cracks me up that the people saying it makes no sense to add veterans because it will lead to more wins are the same ones arguing that guys like Kemp and Markakis suck and aren't a positive on the major league roster.

Fielding a major league team full of AAAA guys and prospects who aren't ready yet so you can lose as many games as possible is just not going to happen. That crap doesn't even really work in basketball, and basketball rebuilds are WAY quicker.
 
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