Braves Acquire Matt Adams From Cardinals

It certainly is strange to see folks react strongly either way to this trade. Yes, it is odd for a non-contender to make a "win-now" move, but the Braves have spent the last 3 years trying to put up the facade of a contending team despite continually being among the worst teams in MLB. So this move is actually perfectly in line with all the other dog and pony show moves the Braves have made since the rebuild started.

It's equally silly to call this move some sort of play for future assets as if Adams is somehow going to markedly increase his trade value over the next 2 months. The Cards traded him for a fungible asset because that's the best they could get for him, and the Braves will be lucky to flip him for an asset of equal value to Yepez 2 months from now. By now, the league knows what Adams is, and no stretch of 150 ABs in a platoon situation is going to alter that.
 
Southcack77 said:
To be fair, they did sign a super bench player for this team, he was just lost for the season.
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And they knew that before Spring Training even began. There were a ton of half-decent options available at the end of the Spring and the Braves went with Bonifacio, which is baffling to me.

I can see the argument for doing absolutely nothing and selling off, but they can still sell off later. I think they made this move because to do otherwise was to announce that they had given up on the season and the team and they are not prepared to do that and perhaps they have good reason beyond this season for not wanting to send that message.
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I can see it too, but it's not so different than the tank v. not tank argument we had on this board last season (and rehashed the entire offseason). I think the circumstances this year make that proposition more fraught with risk for the Front Office.

I would have real questions about this had they sent a major piece, but this is the equivalent of Chris Ellis and John Gant to me.
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And, hey, I thought that was a pretty mediocre trade for the Braves.
 
Yeah, I'm surprised to see strong feelings one way or the other. On one hand, this tracks with the veneer of "competing," or at least not-obviously-tanking that's governed the 2017+ mindset. On the other hand, there was no decent internal replacement for FF, and we got a marginally useful guy at the cost of...well, probably nothing, really.

As someone who thinks that we're unlikely to be playing significantly meaningful games for another two years, I'm neither disappointed nor particularly encouraged by this move. I hope Adams hits the **** out of the ball and finds a forever home, and helps the Braves (one way or another) in the process.
 
Julio3000 said:
Yeah, I'm surprised to see strong feelings one way or the other. On one hand, this tracks with the veneer of "competing," or at least not-obviously-tanking that's governed the 2017+ mindset. On the other hand, there was no decent internal replacement for FF, and we got a marginally useful guy at the cost of...well, probably nothing, really.

As someone who thinks that we're unlikely to be playing significantly meaningful games for another two years, I'm neither disappointed nor particularly encouraged by this move. I hope Adams hits the **** out of the ball and finds a forever home, and helps the Braves (one way or another) in the process.
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For the record, I don't really have strong feelings on it. I have a clear opinion, which I shared once questioned, but it's not like I'm pulling my hair out over this. My reaction was just 'ugh' for the reasons I've stated. Don't like it, but it's not going to change my opinion of the direction we're headed.
 
smootness said:
For the record, I don't really have strong feelings on it. I have a clear opinion, which I shared once questioned, but it's not like I'm pulling my hair out over this. My reaction was just 'ugh' for the reasons I've stated. Don't like it, but it's not going to change my opinion of the direction we're headed.
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It's one thing to have an opinion. It's another to continue to espouse it while batting away realities which question it. But I digress.

This is going to get really amusing when the Braves actually trade away one of the promised ones.
 
smootness said:
So long as it's in a deal that makes sense in terms of value and helps us when we're trying to compete, I'm all for it.
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With the rate these pitchers are progressing, or more accurately, failing to progress, I see almost no scenario where the Braves trade away a young stud pitching prospect. It is infinitely more likely they trade away guys like Teheran and Folty when they have 1-2 years of control remaining than they trade away a prospect at the Allard/Gohara/Soroka/Anderson level.
 
Enscheff said:
With the rate these pitchers are progressing, or more accurately, failing to progress, I see almost no scenario where the Braves trade away a young stud pitching prospect. It is infinitely more likely they trade away guys like Teheran and Folty when they have 1-2 years of control remaining than they trade away a prospect at the Allard/Gohara/Soroka/Anderson level.
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Most of our pitching prospects have progressed this year.
 
smootness said:
Most of our pitching prospects have progressed this year.
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I realize the posi-Braves don't want to hear it, but since 2011 the Braves have produced the following SPs:

Teheran - 13.1 WAR, may be declining already
Alex Wood - 9.0 WAR, injury plagued career that is likely to continue similarly
Folty - 0.2 WAR, hoping for much more

Shall I list the failed SP prospects in that time frame?

The group of Folty, Wisler, Blair and Jenkins likely only yielded Folty as a legit SP. Prior to that, the group of Teheran, Delgado and Viz yielded only Teheran.

The Braves will be lucky to get 1-2 legit SPs from this Gohara, Allard, Anderson and Soroka group. They will likely get 1-2 more SPs from the lower tier Sims, Newcomb, Fried, Touki, Weigel, Wentz, Muller group. That's not enough SPs to be dealing prospects.

I know, I know, this group is different. Except that it probably isn't, just like none of the other groups before them was different. Gohara has already been shut down for his 2nd arm related injury, so the likelihood of him even reaching the majors is a stretch.
 
smootness said:
So long as it's in a deal that makes sense in terms of value and helps us when we're trying to compete, I'm all for it.
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I'm certainly not married to any of the guys if it brings back a proven player with control. There are some folks who can't bear to part with any prospect at all ever and I am not one of those.
 
Enscheff said:
I realize the posi-Braves don't want to hear it, but since 2011 the Braves have produced the following SPs:

Teheran - 13.1 WAR, may be declining already

Alex Wood - 9.0 WAR, injury plagued career that is likely to continue similarly

Folty - 0.2 WAR, hoping for much more

Shall I list the failed SP prospects in that time frame?

The group of Folty, Wisler, Blair and Jenkins likely only yielded Folty as a legit SP. Prior to that, the group of Teheran, Delgado and Viz yielded only Teheran.

The Braves will be lucky to get 1-2 legit SPs from this Gohara, Allard, Anderson and Soroka group. They will likely get 1-2 more SPs from the lower tier Sims, Newcomb, Fried, Touki, Weigel, Wentz, Muller group. That's not enough SPs to be dealing prospects.

I know, I know, this group is different. Except that it probably isn't, just like none of the other groups before them was different. Gohara has already been shut down for his 2nd arm related injury, so the likelihood of him even reaching the majors is a stretch.
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First let me caveat by saying I do not consider myself a "posi" or "nega" Brave fan. I always opt for a reasoned and informed approach before forming an opinion; whether that position is perceived to be positive or negative is outside of my control (and frankly outside of the ambit of what I choose to focus on).

I generally agree with your premise; the Braves MO, for better or for worse, is to focus on upside arms and those types of prospects obviously tend to have the highest flame out %. The chances of 2 or even 3 of our current crop of arms becoming front line SPs is very minimal; I'm hoping for 1 and, if we're lucky, 2 SPs with perhaps a handful of others becoming successful RPs over time.

However, depending on how you slice the time period under which you are evaluating SPs from the, org, your post ignores a few. Just off the top of my head, both Medlen and Beachy produced multiple WAR over a few seasons in that time period (with Medlen's 2012 alone producing 4.5 WAR in a single season). Yes, both are damaged goods now (with a glimmer of hope for Meds, perhaps), but I still think it's appropriate to cover the full canvas when presenting factual data. I haven't gone back to look at who else may be in that group - maybe Hanson (RIP), who I think overall had a positive WAR across his time with ATL but obviously he also got derailed after his first successful foray with the Braves.
 
ramadon101 said:
First let me caveat by saying I do not consider myself a "posi" or "nega" Brave fan. I always opt for a reasoned and informed approach before forming an opinion; whether that position is perceived to be positive or negative is outside of my control (and frankly outside of the ambit of what I choose to focus on).

I generally agree with your premise; the Braves MO, for better or for worse, is to focus on upside arms and those types of prospects obviously tend to have the highest flame out %. The chances of 2 or even 3 of our current crop of arms becoming front line SPs is very minimal; I'm hoping for 1 and, if we're lucky, 2 SPs with perhaps a handful of others becoming successful RPs over time.

However, depending on how you slice the time period under which you are evaluating SPs from the, org, your post ignores a few. Just off the top of my head, both Medlen and Beachy produced multiple WAR over a few seasons in that time period (with Medlen's 2012 alone producing 4.5 WAR in a single season). Yes, both are damaged goods now (with a glimmer of hope for Meds, perhaps), but I still think it's appropriate to cover the full canvas when presenting factual data. I haven't gone back to look at who else may be in that group - maybe Hanson (RIP), who I think overall had a positive WAR across his time with ATL but obviously he also got derailed after his first successful foray with the Braves.
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OK, let's add in guys before Teheran. Let's include Medlen, Beachy, Minor and Hanson (though that's going pretty far back).

Medlen (2009) - 8.8 WAR, trying to come back from numerous injuries in A ball
Hanson (2009) - 6.8 WAR, peaked as BAs #4 prospect, and hasn't pitched since 2013
Beachy (2010) - 3.1 WAR, hasn't pitched since 2015, all his production came over a 38 start stretch from 2011-2012
Minor (2010) - 4.7 WAR, currently a good BP arm in KC

I'm not sure how that group of guys foretells any better success than the guys I originally listed. I wouldn't consider any of them to be a success story by any means, and I don't think anyone would be happy if the best production we see from the Allard/Gohara/Soroka/Anderson group is one of those guys.

This fallacy that the Braves are some sort of pitcher factory is, quite simply, not true.

Ironically enough, the best pitcher from the Braves system since the HOF Trio was traded away to the Cardinals. Wainwright has produced 34.8 WAR for the Cards...all for a single season of JD Drew.
 
Forever Fredi said:
Always wonder how things would have fared differently if Minor, Medlen, and Beachy were all healthy in 2014.
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Probably much better, but to act like those guys breaking down is some anomaly and this group of pitchers will be different is being willingly naive. Folks simply don't realize how exceptionally lucky the Braves were with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz. The guy who manages your local ChikFila would look like a genius managing an organization with those 3 pitchers in it.
 
Enscheff said:
Probably much better, but to act like those guys breaking down is some anomaly and this group of pitchers will be different is being willingly naive. Folks simply don't realize how exceptionally lucky the Braves were with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.
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Not arguiing any of that. But if they had DL stints instead of TJ's, perhaps we don't break up the core as early as we did to go with the full rebuild.
 
Forever Fredi said:
Not arguiing any of that. But if they had DL stints instead of TJ's, perhaps we don't break up the core as early as we did to go with the full rebuild.
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And if Mark Prior and Kerry Wood don't break down, the Cubs might have won a WS a decade earlier.

And if the Mets hadn't suffered so many injuries to their exceptional staff, they would be playoff contenders today.

If, if, if. This is what happens with pitchers, and is why teams like the Astros, Dodgers, Cubs , and now Yankees have been building around position players.
 
Enscheff said:
OK, let's add in guys before Teheran. Let's include Medlen, Beachy, Minor and Hanson (though that's going pretty far back).

Medlen (2009) - 8.8 WAR, trying to come back from numerous injuries in A ball
Hanson (2009) - 6.8 WAR, peaked as BAs #4 prospect, and hasn't pitched since 2013
Beachy (2010) - 3.1 WAR, hasn't pitched since 2015, all his production came over a 38 start stretch from 2011-2012
Minor (2010) - 4.7 WAR, currently a good BP arm in KC

I'm not sure how that group of guys foretells any better success than the guys I originally listed. I wouldn't consider any of them to be a success story by any means, and I don't think anyone would be happy if the best production we see from the Allard/Gohara/Soroka/Anderson group is one of those guys.

This fallacy that the Braves are some sort of pitcher factory is, quite simply, not true.

Ironically enough, the best pitcher from the Braves system since the HOF Trio was traded away to the Cardinals. Wainwright has produced 34.8 WAR for the Cards...all for a single season of JD Drew.
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We also traded away Jason Schmidt.
 
nsacpi said:
We also traded away Jason Schmidt.
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He predates even Waino.

Schimdt produced 31.8 WAR, including a couple seasons of nearly 7 WAR that lead to Top 5 finishes in CYA voting.

So in other words, the best TWO pitchers the Braves have produced have been traded away. Not good news for a "pitcher factory".
 
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