Is the rebuild in trouble?

[thethe]

Sure it's early... but knowing what we know now, i'm not sure i make those trades again. I probably make the Gattis trade, but i wouldn't have made the Upton, Simmons, Kimbrel, Wood trades.

I think we'd be in a lot better shape if we held onto to our long term assets, and we'd be a better team.

Of course, I could be wrong

Agreed 100% on Kimbrel and Wood.

Not sure how you can be dissatisfied with the Upton deal. We have seen the worst player from the deal so far. Newcomb is very controversial around these parts but he has maintained his K rate and low hits against as he's moved up the ladder. Not sure how true this is but I'd rather a guy with a high walk rate and high K rate as opposed to a low walk rate and low K rate.

 

[mfree80]

Sure it's early... but knowing what we know now, i'm not sure i make those trades again. I probably make the Gattis trade, but i wouldn't have made the Upton, Simmons, Kimbrel, Wood trades.

I think we'd be in a lot better shape if we held onto to our long term assets, and we'd be a better team.

Of course, I could be wrong

Hindsight is a great tool. Its just that its only available after the fact

 

[Russ2dollas]

You can't judge trades after 1-2 years of hindsight. Trades must be evaluated based on the information available at the time of the trade.

The problem with the Simmons, Kimbrel and Wood trades were that they watered down the future value of the returns by getting present (or very near future present) value as part of the package. For a rebuilding team, that is a bad process. Bad process means bad trade, regardless of how the prospects i nthe deals ultimately turned out.

I didn't and I don't like the simba deal. But I don't think they watered it down

The angles wanted to give us aybar so they didn't have to pay him. We thought he'd protect Dan's by click and maybe be flippable. I don't think we demanded aybar and therefore got a. A bad return

 

[Enscheff]

I didn't and I don't like the simba deal. But I don't think they watered it down

The angles wanted to give us aybar so they didn't have to pay him. We thought he'd protect Dan's by click and maybe be flippable. I don't think we demanded aybar and therefore got a. A bad return

Do you remember what Coppy said about Aybar when he was acquired? That didn't sound like a guy talking about a player he was forced to take. He didn't talk about other dead weight contracts the Braves took on like he talked about Aybar.

The Braves clearly saw Aybar as a positive, and wanted a MLB SS to replace Simmons.

 

[Southcack77]

It's not? They simply could have not signed Nick and kept BJ around. You get the money to do all the things you said they did with it plus get more value out of Kimbrel. But they didn't do that. They wanted to try and contend in 2017. They thought Nick could be apart of that and shedding BJ's salary would help. It was a mistake to try and go down that road and they abandoned that plan at the end of the year.

Imo, they wanted to get rid of upton and his salary but it had nothing to do with signing markakis.

 

[sturg33]

Hindsight is a great tool. Its just that its only available after the fact

Sure... but old timers will remember that I was an AVID critic of the tear down... but my opponents said it was worth it because we were re-stocking the system.

KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW NOW, it appears we could have avoided the tear down without destroying out long term prospects.

Without trading any of them, we would have had a competitive team and still had Acuna, Albies, Peraza, Allard, Soroka, Matian, 2016 1st draft pick. Not too shabby considering we also would have had Simmons, Wood, Kimbrel, Gattis, etc.

Some of the trades were justified and worth making... but the compete tear down did not yield the results we were hoping for.

That could change if Newcomb turns into an ace or Wisler or Touki turns into an ace.... but I don't see it. We'll see. Hope I'm wrong

 

[Southcack77]

Do you remember what Coppy said about Aybar when he was acquired? That didn't sound like a guy talking about a player he was forced to take. He didn't talk about other dead weight contracts the Braves took on like he talked about Aybar.

The Braves clearly saw Aybar as a positive, and wanted a MLB SS to replace Simmons.

You pay too much attention to sales talk.

Imo, Aybar wasn't a significant cost to the braves and they felt he could fill the hole at short until they traded him for another small asset at the deadline.

 

[chop2chip]

The trade that made the most sense at the time (Kimbrel) is the one that makes me the most sick.

 

[Southcack77]

I think this is one of the key things to keep in mind. The HO trade (as designed) would have moved wins forward into 2016 and 2017 at the expense of years further out. In the end, it didn't work as designed and ended up being a disaster. But the as designed premise of the trade was itself questionable.

I don't think that was what it was designed to do.

I think they were trying to pick up an above average MLB hitter at a cheap price with control, which would have been an asset. There were other things in the deal for them also that were for the future, but it seems to have been a failure in scouting and ultimately a mostly failed trade.

Whether it was realistic for braves to believe in oliveira is another question. Obviously reality says they shouldn't have.

 

[nsacpi]

I don't think that was what it was designed to do.

I think they were trying to pick up an above average MLB hitter at a cheap price with control, which would have been an asset. There were other things in the deal for them also that were for the future, but it seems to have been a failure in scouting and ultimately a mostly failed trade.

Whether it was realistic for braves to believe in oliveira is another question. Obviously reality says they shouldn't have.

when you look at the ages of the players involved and expected surplus value by year, there isn't much doubt that the trade was designed to bring forward wins

 

[Knucksie]

Imo, they wanted to get rid of upton and his salary but it had nothing to do with signing markakis.

Yeah, people around here act as if every transaction is linked. Markakis was signed to help tutor the kids to become professionals. Not sure what the market was, but probably some hometown involved.

 

[Southcack77]

There is a lot of doubt.

Wood and Peraza were as likely to contribute short term wins than ho and a draft pick.

The draft pick was part of their strategy for long term restocking.

Ho if he worked out would have been controllable at a reasonable pro e for a long while.

The deal turned out bad. They blew the scouting of ho. Could have gotten a younger return. People that criticized taking a 30 year old rookie were vindicated.

I don't really think they gave up anything particularly valuable though--but certainly would not do it again.

Which coppy has also said.

 

[sturg33]

I don't really think they gave up anything particularly valuable though--but certainly would not do it again.

Which coppy has also said.

In a season in which our pitching is terrible, Alex Wood has already produced 2 WAR.

And Peraza is on pace for a 2 WAR season

 

[smootness]

Sure it's early... but knowing what we know now, i'm not sure i make those trades again. I probably make the Gattis trade, but i wouldn't have made the Upton, Simmons, Kimbrel, Wood trades.

I think we'd be in a lot better shape if we held onto to our long term assets, and we'd be a better team.

Of course, I could be wrong

You wouldn't trade one year of JUp again for Fried, Gohara, Peterson, and Peterson?

 

[sturg33]

You wouldn't trade one year of JUp again for Fried, Gohara, Peterson, and Peterson?

We didn't trade him for Gohara.

I would have tried to compete in 2015.

If we decided we couldn't have... I probably would have traded Heyward or Upton (not both) in the offseason. If you then foolishly sign Markakis, you go to bat with that team. If you fail to compete, you trade Heyward/Upton in July. You trade Kimbrel for the big haul.

I would have traded Kimbrel too if we could have gotten a Margot, Torres, or Frazier for him, but we didn't so I would have held on to him until the trade deadline.

I'm holding on to Simmons, Wood, and Peraza. I'd have let Gattis catch - but I'm fine with the trade we made.

I would have done things very differently. May not have worked out. But I don't think what we've done has worked out either. At least, it's not a good probability that it will

 

[Southcack77]

In a season in which our pitching is terrible, Alex Wood has already produced 2 WAR.

And Peraza is on pace for a 2 WAR season

We'll see.

 

[Southcack77]

We didn't trade him for Gohara.

I would have tried to compete in 2015.

If we decided we couldn't have... I probably would have traded Heyward or Upton (not both) in the offseason. If you then foolishly sign Markakis, you go to bat with that team. If you fail to compete, you trade Heyward/Upton in July. You trade Kimbrel for the big haul.

I would have traded Kimbrel too if we could have gotten a Margot, Torres, or Frazier for him, but we didn't so I would have held on to him until the trade deadline.

I'm holding on to Simmons, Wood, and Peraza. I'd have let Gattis catch - but I'm fine with the trade we made.

I would have done things very differently. May not have worked out. But I don't think what we've done has worked out either. At least, it's not a good probability that it will

You'd have won a few more games but no important ones and have less of a farm system. And since you committed to winning without nearly enough talent you may well have drafted for floor and traded prospects.

 

[sturg33]

You'd have won a few more games but no important ones and have less of a farm system. And since you committed to winning without nearly enough talent you may well have drafted for floor and traded prospects.

We had a team that won the most games in baseball from 2010 - 2014. We had a down year in 2014 and decided to burn it to the ground, while the team was relatively the same as previous years.

What we did instead was give us a guaranteed loser for years to come. And the trades we made have not yet and may not ever yield any legitimate impact big leaguer.

The lone exception was Shelby Miller... and as I've said many times for the sake of Coppy's job, thank God for Dave Stewart.

 

[thethe]

We had a team that won the most games in baseball from 2010 - 2014. We had a down year in 2014 and decided to burn it to the ground, while the team was relatively the same as previous years.

What we did instead was give us a guaranteed loser for years to come. And the trades we made have not yet and may not ever yield any legitimate impact big leaguer.

The lone exception was Shelby Miller... and as I've said many times for the sake of Coppy's job, thank God for Dave Stewart.

Were either heyward or Upton worth keeping?

 

[smootness]

We had a team that won the most games in baseball from 2010 - 2014. We had a down year in 2014 and decided to burn it to the ground, while the team was relatively the same as previous years.

What we did instead was give us a guaranteed loser for years to come. And the trades we made have not yet and may not ever yield any legitimate impact big leaguer.

The lone exception was Shelby Miller... and as I've said many times for the sake of Coppy's job, thank God for Dave Stewart.

We were pretty much guaranteed to go into a rebuild period after 2015 regardless. We just started it a year early to get a jump-start on the rebuild.