THURSDAY MINORS THREAD 6/15 ... Soroka continues scoreless streak

[thethe]

Yes, service time is very important to mid market teams. The only thing it would accomplish is making you feel good about seeing your shiny new toy.

So your fine with wasting innings on an arm that is likely to explode in the minor league when the pitcher is proving he is close to being ready. This binary thought process of promoting during a certain time because of service time is short sighted. Get pitchers up when they are fresh. Let another team worry about when they get injurred.

 

[50PoundHead]

Yes we know. Service time reigns supreme. Pitchers are ticking time bombs. I'd rather get them up when they are ready. It's silly to protect pitchers for 5-7 years down the road. If he's ready get him up here.

Position players I would agree with though.

Soroka isn't a high octane thrower or a guy who relies on a big hook so the ticking of the time bomb is softer with him. Doesn't mean he won't get hurt, but I tend to worry less about fatigue and injuries with him. They are handling his pitch count well.

If he goes to spring training next year and is totally unhittable and makes a rock solid case that he should be in the rotation sometime in 2018, so be it. I just tend to be on the patient side.

 

[thewupk]

So your fine with wasting innings on an arm that is likely to explode in the minor league when the pitcher is proving he is close to being ready. This binary thought process of promoting during a certain time because of service time is short sighted. Get pitchers up when they are fresh. Let another team worry about when they get injurred.

A month is not wasting innings. If he really proves he is ready then bring him up when you are able to gain that extra year. It should be that way with any young player that can be a stud. The exception is when said player fills an immediate need and your team is expecting to compete for a playoff spot all year.

It makes even more sense for a starter compared to a position player. All you are giving up is like two starts since you can manipulate your rotation to start the year due to all the days off you get.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

I am fine with patiences. But I don't care about service clock as much as others. Swanson is getting the best education if his life right now. I don't want to see this slump in 2018 or 2019. He will be extended to whatever the braves feel they want to keep him. Newk will get his education. Folty getting his. You can't bring up an entire team together and expect to compete. They are straggering these guys out perfectly. Ozzie will be next. Weigel and sims will before soroka. But Soroka will come up when he is ready. Not when his clock tells them he is ready. If he is that good he will also be extended for however long they want to keep him.

 

[thethe]

Soroka isn't a high octane thrower or a guy who relies on a big hook so the ticking of the time bomb is softer with him. Doesn't mean he won't get hurt, but I tend to worry less about fatigue and injuries with him. They are handling his pitch count well.

If he goes to spring training next year and is totally unhittable and makes a rock solid case that he should be in the rotation sometime in 2018, so be it. I just tend to be on the patient side.

My hope for Soroka is that he is a kid from the north so should be fresh and of course may save us from the white walkers.

 

[thethe]

A month is not wasting innings. If he really proves he is ready then bring him up when you are able to gain that extra year. It should be that way with any young player that can be a stud. The exception is when said player fills an immediate need and your team is expecting to compete for a playoff spot all year.

It makes even more sense for a starter compared to a position player. All you are giving up is like two starts since you can manipulate your rotation to start the year due to all the days off you get.

I can get behind a month. People are talking mid season and I'm not for that.

 

[thewupk]

I can get behind a month. People are talking mid season and I'm not for that.

Even 3 months isn't a big deal. If you think a pitcher is fragile and going to blow up then it's going to happen regardless. Is 3 months in a non contending season really going to matter that much? There is also the additional benefit of that extra year of control plus delaying arbitration another season. Things other teams would value in a trade since we would want to get rid of a player before their arm falls off.

You are talking about Soroka like he is Doc Gooden and the Braves are the 84 Mets. He's not that good and the Braves don't need him at the MLB level for the majority of 2018.

 

[thethe]

Even 3 months isn't a big deal. If you think a pitcher is fragile and going to blow up then it's going to happen regardless. Is 3 months in a non contending season really going to matter that much? There is also the additional benefit of that extra year of control plus delaying arbitration another season. Things other teams would value in a trade since we would want to get rid of a player before their arm falls off.

You are talking about Soroka like he is Doc Gooden and the Braves are the 84 Mets. He's not that good and the Braves don't need him at the MLB level for the majority of 2018.

I'm not writing off 18 at this point. Plus if you think 19 isnm the year then why not give Soroka 18 to get ready for 19?

What is he learning right now in AA that will get him ready for the majors? Seems like he needs a higher level of competition. Could change quickly though.

 

[thewupk]

I'm not writing off 18 at this point. Plus if you think 19 isnm the year then why not give Soroka 18 to get ready for 19?

What is he learning right now in AA that will get him ready for the majors? Seems like he needs a higher level of competition. Could change quickly though.

If Soroka continues to impress then a half season in the majors in 2018 is sufficient to get ready for 2019.

 

[jpack1]

Absolutely no rush. Finish majority of the year in AA then maybe up to AAA for a few starts at the end of the year if he's still killing it. Then a half season in AAA next year. That's still very aggressive and in the bigs at 20. 140 ish innings last year. Need to get around 160-170 this year.

 

[Preacher]

I'm not writing off 18 at this point. Plus if you think 19 isnm the year then why not give Soroka 18 to get ready for 19?

What is he learning right now in AA that will get him ready for the majors? Seems like he needs a higher level of competition. Could change quickly though.

I'd wager he's learning a TON right now, he's 19, he's got a lot to learn and even with his success there's no real reason to rush him right now with Sims/Wiegel/Newk all ahead of him.

He's at 76 innings in AA, lets see how he's pitching when he's at ~140, its a long season.

 

[msstate7]

I am fine with patiences. But I don't care about service clock as much as others. Swanson is getting the best education if his life right now. I don't want to see this slump in 2018 or 2019. He will be extended to whatever the braves feel they want to keep him. Newk will get his education. Folty getting his. You can't bring up an entire team together and expect to compete. They are straggering these guys out perfectly. Ozzie will be next. Weigel and sims will before soroka. But Soroka will come up when he is ready. Not when his clock tells them he is ready. If he is that good he will also be extended for however long they want to keep him.

I agree

 

[Super]

I'd wager he's learning a TON right now, he's 19, he's got a lot to learn and even with his success there's no real reason to rush him right now with Sims/Wiegel/Newk all ahead of him.

He's at 76 innings in AA, lets see how he's pitching when he's at ~140, its a long season.

Yeah, you also want to see how long he can consistently hold up. He pitched 143 last year. I seem to remember him faltering a little down the stretch before rebounding nicely at the end. I think he's really good. But yep, there are guys ahead of him. Let him continue to dominate, it's not going to hurt him. If he kills AAA next year there will be a time for him to get a start or a few or maybe a lot.

 

[Southcack77]

Yes, service time is very important to mid market teams. The only thing it would accomplish is making you feel good about seeing your shiny new toy.

I think people get a little too excited about a single year of control, but sure.

folks tend to make relatively small things into really big things, but that's what the internet is for.

That said, I don't see the need or likelihood of his starting the season in the majors next year.

 

[Southcack77]

There are other players ahead of him in line for one thing.

 

[thewupk]

I think people get a little too excited about a single year of control, but sure.

folks tend to make relatively small things into really big things, but that's what the internet is for.

That said, I don't see the need or likelihood of his starting the season in the majors next year.

An extra year of control in a players prime is vastly more valuable than a couple of starts for a starting pitcher when he first comes up. Also delaying arbitration for an extra year is also important as well. Over the years there have been several players who aren't stars but nice role players who have to be released because they get too expensive in arbitration. These things happen and can sometimes be avoided by carefully planning when you bring a guy up.

 

[clvclv]

He's in the 60s on pipeline. That's pretty darn close.

And will be higher when their midseason list breaks. Just guessing, but Albies, Acuna, Maitan, Wright, Soroka, and possibly Allard will all slot into most midseason Top 50s.

 

[Southcack77]

An extra year of control in a players prime is vastly more valuable than a couple of starts for a starting pitcher when he first comes up. Also delaying arbitration for an extra year is also important as well. Over the years there have been several players who aren't stars but nice role players who have to be released because they get too expensive in arbitration. These things happen and can sometimes be avoided by carefully planning when you bring a guy up.

You use words like vast that make it seem like it is exceedingly important, but in the scheme of things it is pretty minor.

All things considered, I agree with your premise though.

 

[nsacpi]

I think people get a little too excited about a single year of control, but sure.

folks tend to make relatively small things into really big things, but that's what the internet is for.

That said, I don't see the need or likelihood of his starting the season in the majors next year.

It is a small thing in the greater context of life. But in terms of managing the payroll of a mid-market team in a way that maximizes its changes for sustainable success it is not a small thing. And it quickly adds up to a big thing if you combine the overall impact of how you manage the service clock time of the whole cohort of core players (Swanson, Albies, Acuna, Soroka and a couple others).

 

[Southcack77]

It is a small thing in the greater context of life. But in terms of managing the payroll of a mid-market team in a way that maximizes its changes for sustainable success it is not a small thing. And it quickly adds up to a big thing if you combine the overall impact of how you manage the service clock time of the whole cohort of core players (Swanson, Albies, Acuna, Soroka and a couple others).

I think its a smaller thing in the context of baseball.

I understand what you are saying, but there is such a thing as being too clever.

I would not have promoted Swanson last season, but my reason would have been that he was scuffling in AA, not that he should be held down another year (why not two?) to maximize future returns.

I would not start Soroka in the majors because he'll be 20 with little experience above AA. And I'd hold him down as long as it seemed feasible. But when you starting thinking about -- well will the Braves really contend in 2018, maybe it would be better to hold him until June 2019 you start losing me.

At the end of the day, I am also not sure that I believe that utility of these decisions ultimately amounts to a ton. Between players that don't pan out, players that sign extensions, players that excel and hit arbitration, players that are traded, injured, etc., these things are not likely to be that important. Do the little things well, sure, but don't run your organization obsessing over it. At the end of the day, the purpose of the organization is to sell tickets to fans. I see that sentiment from some on here and disagree with it sometimes, but ultimately they are correct. That's the point. When a team like the Braves are rebuilding like they are, I think its better to pull the bandaid and embrace it. But when you step out of that phase (and I think next year is probably the target) you should start operating like a baseball club again.

When I say next year is the target (maybe it should be 2019), I just mean a change in focus from prioritizing prospects to prioritizing the produce at the MLB level. I could certainly see the argument for one more year of stopgaps and sell offs at the deadline though.