Matt wisler

[thewupk]

Braves would still be paying BJ 16.5m this year, I think.

It's still funny how comically bad Braves free agent signings turn out to be. BJ hit .184 and .208, still incomprehensibly horrible.

And immediately becomes a serviceable player after leaving.

The BJ trade and Markakis signing is another set of moves made under the assumption the Braves needed to contend in 2017. The Braves owed BJ 46 million for the next 3 years and signed Markakis for 44 million for the next 4. Essentially the same amount of money invested.

You are right that sometimes the GM's hands are tied to what ownership or leadership in the Braves case wants. I don't put much blame on Coppy as Hart was actually the GM for much of that mess but my blame goes to the group as a whole or whoever's idea it really was.

 

[Enscheff]

Here is the thing though. You are not in the Braves front office yet you have this fantasy that you are. You type out these long involved posts like instructions sheets, the Braves should have done a,b, and c. You type it like you know 100 % it would have worked. We all know nothing works exactly as laid out that is life.

Of course I think it would have worked, or else I wouldn't have typed it. I objectively apply logic to the best data we have available.

So rather than just being contrarian and offering nothing of substance in your post, answer these questions and contribute your own original thoughts:

1. Do you think it was wise to lose 94 games instead of 100 games the last 2 years at the expense of better assets in 2018 and later?
2. Do you agree that several posters here, as well as every non-Braves affiliated analysts on the internet, projected the Braves to be very bad even with those "win now-ish" moves?
3. If you agree with 2, then why is it wrong to criticize the FO for literally being the only people that didn't know trying to "win now-ish" was a foolish idea?

Or would you just prefer we all sit around acting like pozzy Barves cheering on everything the Braves FO does?

 

[VirginiaBrave]

Of course I think it would have worked, or else I wouldn't have typed it. I objectively apply logic to the best data we have available.

So rather than just being contrarian and offering nothing of substance in your post, answer these questions and contribute your own original thoughts:

1. Do you think it was wise to lose 94 games instead of 100 games the last 2 years at the expense of better assets in 2018 and later?
2. Do you agree that several posters here, as well as every non-Braves affiliated analysts on the internet, projected the Braves to be very bad even with those "win now-ish" moves?
3. If you agree with 2, then why is it wrong to criticize the FO for literally being the only people that didn't know trying to "win now-ish" was a foolish idea?

Or would you just prefer we all sit around acting like pozzy Barves cheering on everything the Braves FO does?

Frankly, I don't have the time or inclination to sit around and over-analyze the moves of the Braves front office anymore. The last two moves made by the front office that got to me were allowing Glavine to become a Met, and giving Wainwright to the Cards for one year of a player you didn't really need. I just don't sweat it anymore. Would I like to have Alex Wood in the rotation?? Sure. Would I like to have gotten Hedges for Kimbrel? I wouldn't have traded CK in the first place. Would I have traded for Kemp? Probably. But I have no control over what the Braves do. The Braves are a better team than they were a year ago and if they keep improving at the rate they have they will contend a year from now. I still contend, however, they won't truly be elite until there is an ownership change.

 

[50PoundHead]

And immediately becomes a serviceable player after leaving.

The BJ trade and Markakis signing is another set of moves made under the assumption the Braves needed to contend in 2017. The Braves owed BJ 46 million for the next 3 years and signed Markakis for 44 million for the next 4. Essentially the same amount of money invested.

You are right that sometimes the GM's hands are tied to what ownership or leadership in the Braves case wants. I don't put much blame on Coppy as Hart was actually the GM for much of that mess but my blame goes to the group as a whole or whoever's idea it really was.

I don't see either moves that way. If the Braves intended to contend in 2017, they wouldn't have traded Kimbrel. I think Markakis was signed as a somewhat expensive placeholder in RF. They wanted a veteran on the team and I remember thinking that once Heyward was traded, Markakis was likely near the top of the Braves' list for replacing him.

As for B.J. Upton, serviceable until he went back to Toronto. I guess he doesn't like Eastern Divisions.

 

[CrimeDog247]

Markakis has been consistent, I don't see him as a waste. Interesting you mentioned Jason Heyward, Cubs were more foolish than others to give him all that money. Frank Wren takes the blunt of the blame, but don't doubt for a minute Schuerholtz wasn't involved in the mess we saw with FA signs and drafts. If you honestly can't see how much better this team is and will be then you're blind.

 

[50PoundHead]

Markakis has been consistent, I don't see him as a waste. Interesting you mentioned Jason Heyward, Cubs were more foolish than others to give him all that money. Frank Wren takes the blunt of the blame, but don't doubt for a minute Schuerholtz wasn't involved in the mess we saw with FA signs and drafts. If you honestly can't see how much better this team is and will be then you're blind.

There's plenty of blame to go around. There's a lot of "he said/he said" going around about how Wren wanted to blow things up earlier, but JS wouldn't let him so while I think Wren does deserve some criticism, it couldn't have been easy with JS looking over his shoulder. Pass some around to Cox as well, who gave the thumbs up on signing BJ Upton.

When your minor leagues are pretty much empty at the upper levels, especially with position players, you have to wade into the free agent market and a team usually overpays if that's the case. If we would have had more major league talent ready to slot in--even if the guys ended up being AAAA players--you can have cheap placeholders, some of whom may develop into something. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case for the Braves when they started this rebuild.

 

[thewupk]

I don't see either moves that way. If the Braves intended to contend in 2017, they wouldn't have traded Kimbrel. I think Markakis was signed as a somewhat expensive placeholder in RF. They wanted a veteran on the team and I remember thinking that once Heyward was traded, Markakis was likely near the top of the Braves' list for replacing him.

As for B.J. Upton, serviceable until he went back to Toronto. I guess he doesn't like Eastern Divisions.

BJ Upton is/was also an expensive placeholder. If the Braves weren't intent on contending in 2017 then they wouldn't have used Kimbrel to clear BJ's salary.

 

[50PoundHead]

BJ Upton is/was also an expensive placeholder. If the Braves weren't intent on contending in 2017 then they wouldn't have used Kimbrel to clear BJ's salary.

BJ was more expensive than Markakis. I still think they should have traded J.R. Graham for Denard Span instead of signing BJ in the first place, but that's a way back when decision. For me, the bottom line is they just should have cut bait with Upton after his second year. You hate to pay guys to play for someone else, but he was done in Atlanta and they should have just stopped the bleeding without getting too cute.

 

[Southcack77]

BJ Upton is/was also an expensive placeholder. If the Braves weren't intent on contending in 2017 then they wouldn't have used Kimbrel to clear BJ's salary.

BJ was the worst player in baseball two years running with Years left on his deal.

His "serviceable" was being fairly bad in a role for the padres and being out of baseball before his contract even expired.

He was a bad player on an absurdly bad contract.

 

[Southcack77]

BJ Upton is/was also an expensive placeholder. If the Braves weren't intent on contending in 2017 then they wouldn't have used Kimbrel to clear BJ's salary.

Just like to say I respect the way you post and have enjoyed the back and forth and it's all in fun. Apologies if I ever step out of line.

 

[Carp]

BJ Upton is/was also an expensive placeholder. If the Braves weren't intent on contending in 2017 then they wouldn't have used Kimbrel to clear BJ's salary.

I think that was more of an ownership decision. It seems like a pretty consistent attitude they've had with these sort of players. Between Uggla, BJ, and HO, they've made it fairly clear that eating dead money simply isn't an option.

And apparently from some recent articles, it paints the picture that the John's may have had their hands tied in this regard.

 

[CK86]

Here is the thing though. You are not in the Braves front office yet you have this fantasy that you are. You type out these long involved posts like instructions sheets, the Braves should have done a,b, and c. You type it like you know 100 % it would have worked. We all know nothing works exactly as laid out that is life.

Easiest way to improve your odds of rebuilding successfully would be to tank. I was criticized harshly the last two years for saying how stupid it is to win in September when you're already out of the playoffs and that getting a better draft pick should be the main objective.

The Braves won a bunch of meaningless September games in 2015 that did nothing to benefit the rebuild long term. Oh congrats, you won 11 of your last 16 games to make sure you didn't get the top draft pick in every round, great job! Picked 3rd instead of 1st despite sucking all season but hey got that mythical momentum for 2016!

Flash forward to last August. Again, eliminated from any idea of playoff contention at a 44-79 record on August 20th. Instead of embracing the suck and getting the top pick in the draft, the Braves stupidly go 24-14 the rest of the way and pick 5th. The Twins were 49-71 after sweeping the Braves on August 17th. They won 10 games the rest of the season and picked 1st. But hey, the Braves have that mythical 5 month momentum that has them right at 40-43 (7.5 games out of the 2nd wild card whoopie!).

I fully admit, I don't follow high school or college baseball or prospects like I used to so I don't claim to be an expert. That said, if you (not necessarily you, Virginiabrave) believe the Braves have some of the best scouts in the business, why would you not want them to pick at the top of the round every single round when there's zero chance at a playoff spot? It makes no sense to win pointless games during a rebuild especially late in the season when draft picks and slots depend on where you finish in the standings. Again, not personally directed at you Virginiabrave but there are some things (like not trading away great players with bad contracts to only get meh returns, tanking and not signing old players to big deals) the front office could do that seem especially simple to help improve the odds of becoming more successful.

 

[Southcack77]

Easiest way to improve your odds of rebuilding successfully would be to tank. I was criticized harshly the last two years for saying how stupid it is to win in September when you're already out of the playoffs and that getting a better draft pick should be the main objective.

The Braves won a bunch of meaningless September games in 2015 that did nothing to benefit the rebuild long term. Oh congrats, you won 11 of your last 16 games to make sure you didn't get the top draft pick in every round, great job! Picked 3rd instead of 1st despite sucking all season but hey got that mythical momentum for 2016!

Flash forward to last August. Again, eliminated from any idea of playoff contention at a 44-79 record on August 20th. Instead of embracing the suck and getting the top pick in the draft, the Braves stupidly go 24-14 the rest of the way and pick 5th. The Twins were 49-71 after sweeping the Braves on August 17th. They won 10 games the rest of the season and picked 1st. But hey, the Braves have that mythical 5 month momentum that has them right at 40-43 (7.5 games out of the 2nd wild card whoopie!).

I fully admit, I don't follow high school or college baseball or prospects like I used to so I don't claim to be an expert. That said, if you (not necessarily you, Virginiabrave) believe the Braves have some of the best scouts in the business, why would you not want them to pick at the top of the round every single round when there's zero chance at a playoff spot? It makes no sense to win pointless games during a rebuild especially late in the season when draft picks and slots depend on where you finish in the standings. Again, not personally directed at you Virginiabrave but there are some things (like not trading away great players with bad contracts to only get meh returns, tanking and not signing old players to big deals) the front office could do that seem especially simple to help improve the odds of becoming more successful.

I also find it irritating that the Braves cost themselves in the draft two years in a row with pointless late season runs. That was extremely frustrating both times it happened.

 

[VirginiaBrave]

Easiest way to improve your odds of rebuilding successfully would be to tank. I was criticized harshly the last two years for saying how stupid it is to win in September when you're already out of the playoffs and that getting a better draft pick should be the main objective.

The Braves won a bunch of meaningless September games in 2015 that did nothing to benefit the rebuild long term. Oh congrats, you won 11 of your last 16 games to make sure you didn't get the top draft pick in every round, great job! Picked 3rd instead of 1st despite sucking all season but hey got that mythical momentum for 2016!

Flash forward to last August. Again, eliminated from any idea of playoff contention at a 44-79 record on August 20th. Instead of embracing the suck and getting the top pick in the draft, the Braves stupidly go 24-14 the rest of the way and pick 5th. The Twins were 49-71 after sweeping the Braves on August 17th. They won 10 games the rest of the season and picked 1st. But hey, the Braves have that mythical 5 month momentum that has them right at 40-43 (7.5 games out of the 2nd wild card whoopie!).

I fully admit, I don't follow high school or college baseball or prospects like I used to so I don't claim to be an expert. That said, if you (not necessarily you, Virginiabrave) believe the Braves have some of the best scouts in the business, why would you not want them to pick at the top of the round every single round when there's zero chance at a playoff spot? It makes no sense to win pointless games during a rebuild especially late in the season when draft picks and slots depend on where you finish in the standings. Again, not personally directed at you Virginiabrave but there are some things (like not trading away great players with bad contracts to only get meh returns, tanking and not signing old players to big deals) the front office could do that seem especially simple to help improve the odds of becoming more successful.

The competitor in me won't accept that. I would dare say that most guys in the big leagues won't accept it either. If sports ever at any point came first in your life you just could not lose on purpose.