nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
As far as I know Trump only said his wire were tapped. And as far as I can tell he meant that the wiretap was directed at intercepting his communications not those of a tenant in Trump Tower.
The Trump Presidency
- Thread starter The Tariff King
- Start date
As far as I know Trump only said his wire were tapped. And as far as I can tell he meant that the wiretap was directed at intercepting his communications not those of a tenant in Trump Tower.
That was his direct tweet. That is his statement. I agree it can be interpreted in more than one way but the responses from clapper and comey now look suspicious. There is reason to be skeptical that this was done on the up and up.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Do we know that Manafort's apartment in Trump Tower was wiretapped? Do we know whether Manafort has been living there or has been renting it to a tenant?
What the CNN article said was that there was a FISA warrant to allow his communications to be monitored. Were there details beyond that?
Jaw
It's OVER 5,000!
Agreed, but don't do the interview if it is likely to involve questions you can't answer honestly without violating confidentiality laws.
Susan Rice's response isn't much better than Clapper's:
PBS’ JUDY WOODRUFF: We have been following a disclosure by the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Devin Nunes (R-CA), that in essence during the final days of the Obama administration, during the transition, after President Trump had been elected—that he and the people around him may have been caught up in surveillance of foreign individuals, and that their identities may have been disclosed. Do you know anything about this?
SUSAN RICE, Former U.S. National Security Adviser: “I know nothing about this. I was surprised to see reports from Chairman Nunes on that count today. And let`s back up and recall where we have been. The president of the United States accused his predecessor, President Obama, of wiretapping Trump Tower during the campaign. Nothing of the sort occurred, and we have heard that confirmed by the director of the FBI, who also pointed out that no president, no White House can order the surveillance of another American citizen. That can only come from the Justice Department, with the approval of a FISA court.
So when taken at their word, neither the NSA or the DNI had any knowledge of this. That is either baffling or untrue, but certainly it is bad either way.
Jaw
It's OVER 5,000!
Michael Mukasey, who served as attorney general to former President George W. Bush, told ABC News "This Week" co-anchor Martha Raddatz, "This is the difference between being correct and being right. I think the president was not correct certainly in saying that President Obama ordered a tap on a server in Trump Tower."
"However, I think he's right in that there was surveillance and that it was conducted at the behest of the attorney -- of the Justice Department through the FISA court," Mukasey said, referring to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court that decides on many surveillance requests by U.S. intelligence agencies.
[...]
On "This Week," Raddatz noted that the FISA court would have approved a wiretap only if there was evidence for suspicion. "So, if there was a wiretap, does that mean there were suspicious things going on between the Trump administration and the Russians?" she asked.
"It means there were some basis to believe that somebody in Trump Tower may have been acting as an agent of the Russians, for whatever purpose, not necessarily the election, but for some purpose," Mukasey said. [ABC News, 3/5/17]
https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2017/03/06/order-defend-trumps-wiretapping-conspiracy-fake-news-purveyors-push-lies-their-own/215572
If Mukasey was right and Lynch did this due to suspicions that a Russian agent was involved in the Trump campaign, wouldn't it have been important enough to pass on to the NSA and DNI? I mean, we aren't talking about Jill Stein or Gary Johnson, this is the Republican nominee for President. Surely that warrants a phone call to one of those offices?
It's increasingly difficult to catch a whiff of this and deny that it stinks.
"However, I think he's right in that there was surveillance and that it was conducted at the behest of the attorney -- of the Justice Department through the FISA court," Mukasey said, referring to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court that decides on many surveillance requests by U.S. intelligence agencies.
[...]
On "This Week," Raddatz noted that the FISA court would have approved a wiretap only if there was evidence for suspicion. "So, if there was a wiretap, does that mean there were suspicious things going on between the Trump administration and the Russians?" she asked.
"It means there were some basis to believe that somebody in Trump Tower may have been acting as an agent of the Russians, for whatever purpose, not necessarily the election, but for some purpose," Mukasey said. [ABC News, 3/5/17]
https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2017/03/06/order-defend-trumps-wiretapping-conspiracy-fake-news-purveyors-push-lies-their-own/215572
If Mukasey was right and Lynch did this due to suspicions that a Russian agent was involved in the Trump campaign, wouldn't it have been important enough to pass on to the NSA and DNI? I mean, we aren't talking about Jill Stein or Gary Johnson, this is the Republican nominee for President. Surely that warrants a phone call to one of those offices?
It's increasingly difficult to catch a whiff of this and deny that it stinks.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
1. Well, you're asking me to produce evidence that none of us are privy to. Going way back, six months back, when intimations of FISA warrants , etc., were first aired, it was discussed that such a warrant was predicated on the subject being suspected of acting as an agent of a foreign power, and that PC for such was required. What's been publicly reported is that Manafort was a participant in conversations that cast suspicion on that score, and was likewise the subject of conversations between other parties that referred to same. So yeah, sorry I'm not privy to the specific information that clears the bar. I have no more way of proving it than you do of proving that it's spurious.
As for FISA, again, I think it's flawed but better than the status quo ante. You asked. Asking about ex post facto oversight is irrelevant.
Jaw
It's OVER 5,000!
That would certainly be the easiest explanation. Your thought that confidentiality could be in play was a good one as well. It will be interesting to see where all off this goes. As I said earlier, the wiggle room in his tweets just has the feel of a trap to me, but maybe I just need a nap.
You think it's a possibility that a warrant was issued and not all communications for manafort weren't monitored?
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
The scenario I'm thinking about is that Manafort did not live at his Trump Tower apartment. What if he was renting it to someone else. He was a landlord of sorts apparently, along with his soon to be former son-in-law.
If this were the case then the FISA request shouldn't have been granted. One of the stipulations of the order is that the property must be used by the agent of a foreign power (Manafort).
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Who said the FISA request was directed at his Trump Tower apartment?
This is what the CNN article says:
While Manafort has a residence in Trump Tower, it's unclear whether FBI surveillance of him took place there.
It would be an interesting piece of information to have. But it is not available as far as I can tell.
Well, you did, in the context of the post I was responding to.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
I appreciate you elevating me to such an exalted position of authority!
We're leaving out some of trump's initial tweets.
"is it legal for a sitting president to be 'wire tapping' a race for president prior to an election. turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!"
never mind his stupid use of " ' " on wire tapping and his teenager-like tweeting, this is a claim that is completely false.
"I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to election!"
"my phones." nope, not your phones. technically and untechnically incorrect.
"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!"
If trump's claim was to mean every single phone in the tower, not just his personal ones, why would he not have pointed that out at the time, or at any time after? Apparently his own DOJ isn't aware of what he meant because they've said his statement isn't true: "Both FBI and National Security Division confirm that they have no records related to wire taps as described by the March 4, 2017 tweets." - Justice Dept.
"For the part of the national security apparatus that I oversaw as DNI, there was no such wiretap activity mounted against the President-elect at the time, or as a candidate, or against his campaign." - Clapper
"I can deny it." - Clapper again, when asked if a FISA was granted to tap trump's phone at trump tower.
It's pretty ridiculous this is what we're talking about when trump had a guy as shady as manafort close to him during the campaign.
But to review, even if the FISA warrant was for Manafort's phone at TT (which we don't know), that doesn't back up trump's claim, unless he thought being specific in this kind of accusation isn't important (he doesn't; he just want his idiots riled up). He references "my phones," claims Obama wiretapped the "race for president" (again, unequivocally false, as even if the taps on manafort's TT phone, that's not tapping the "race for president").
The only way you believe that's what he meant is if you want to.
Me? I think he's just an idiot who doesn't think for a second about what he says before he says it. Maybe he meant all the things his supporters hope and wish he meant, but then he's awful at conveying his point - which is really not a surprise.
"is it legal for a sitting president to be 'wire tapping' a race for president prior to an election. turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!"
never mind his stupid use of " ' " on wire tapping and his teenager-like tweeting, this is a claim that is completely false.
"I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to election!"
"my phones." nope, not your phones. technically and untechnically incorrect.
"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!"
If trump's claim was to mean every single phone in the tower, not just his personal ones, why would he not have pointed that out at the time, or at any time after? Apparently his own DOJ isn't aware of what he meant because they've said his statement isn't true: "Both FBI and National Security Division confirm that they have no records related to wire taps as described by the March 4, 2017 tweets." - Justice Dept.
"For the part of the national security apparatus that I oversaw as DNI, there was no such wiretap activity mounted against the President-elect at the time, or as a candidate, or against his campaign." - Clapper
"I can deny it." - Clapper again, when asked if a FISA was granted to tap trump's phone at trump tower.
It's pretty ridiculous this is what we're talking about when trump had a guy as shady as manafort close to him during the campaign.
But to review, even if the FISA warrant was for Manafort's phone at TT (which we don't know), that doesn't back up trump's claim, unless he thought being specific in this kind of accusation isn't important (he doesn't; he just want his idiots riled up). He references "my phones," claims Obama wiretapped the "race for president" (again, unequivocally false, as even if the taps on manafort's TT phone, that's not tapping the "race for president").
The only way you believe that's what he meant is if you want to.
Me? I think he's just an idiot who doesn't think for a second about what he says before he says it. Maybe he meant all the things his supporters hope and wish he meant, but then he's awful at conveying his point - which is really not a surprise.
57Brave
Well-known member
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