Andruw's Case For The Hall

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It's obviously not just his defense, but the fact that he was arguably the best defensive CF of all-time SHOULD put him over the top - not trying to stay on the ballot. Compared to the group widely considered as the best CFs ever...

1.) More 2Bs (383) than Duke Snider (358), Ty Cobb (295), or Mickey Mantle (344) - and just shy of Joe Dimaggio (389).

2.) More HRs (434) than Joe Dimaggio (361), Duke Snider (407), and Ty Cobb (117).

3.) More SBs (152) than Joe Dimaggio (30), Duke Snider (99), and just shy of Mickey Mantle (153). Ken Griffey Jr. only had 32 more.
 
ANdruw is not as good of a CF as any of them.

But my case for Andruw is simple. Of the players on the ballot this year, Andruw has the 5th highest WAR7, behind, Bonds, Clemens, Schilling and Chipper, Far superior to even the Steroid era Sosa.

Andruw needs to stay on the ballot and I think he'll make a high climb in 10 years or so.
 
AJ is a big hall guy. Better than most on the current list and better than a lot of people already in the hall. It's all about public perception of him. He signed a big deal and fell off fast. He had a huge peak (3rd highest WAR for a 10 year stretch behind 2 roiders in Bonds and Arod). But these things aren't always about hard facts and emotions come into play with these writers.
 
ANdruw is not as good of a CF as any of them. (zitothebrave)

To say that about Andruw is out of touch with the difference of game. I had the pleasure of watching Duke Snider and Mickey in person and on TV. Mickey was my most fav "hated" player. He was the best of his day but the game was far different when AJ played.The size and shape of the stadiums was far different(higher walls). Height of mound being the biggest difference. IMO, AJ was a better defensive player by just a little(better jumper against the wall).
 
zitothebrave said:
ANdruw is not as good of a CF as any of them.

But my case for Andruw is simple. Of the players on the ballot this year, Andruw has the 5th highest WAR7, behind, Bonds, Clemens, Schilling and Chipper, Far superior to even the Steroid era Sosa.

Andruw needs to stay on the ballot and I think he'll make a high climb in 10 years or so.
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Are you saying he wasn't as good defensively? That is so patently insane that its difficult to comprehend how you have that impression. Andruw is pretty clearly the best defensive center fielder of all time. The only guy who is even remotely close is Willie Mays. According to Fangraphs, Andruw had an absurd career 281.3 defensive rating. Willie Mays has a 170.1, Mantle has a negative 78.1, Ken Griffey has a negative 39.6, Cobb has a negative 90, etc... Jones has the biggest gap at his position between him and the second best (Mays) of any other all time defender at their position except for Brooks Robinson. That means that he is clearly one of the best defensive players of all time, regardless of his position. If you just go by the Def rating of 281.3, he is the best outfielder of all time and the 8th best defensive player of all time. All of the guys ahead of him are infielders and all of them are in the hall of fame, except Mark Belanger who was an awful hitter.

The TLDR is that Jones is the best defensive outfielder of all time, and it isn't particularly close. I have a feeling that Jones is going to end up being snubbed and in 20 years people are going to look back and realize that him not being in the hall is a travesty.
 
BeanieAntics said:
Are you saying he wasn't as good defensively? That is so patently insane that its difficult to comprehend how you have that impression. Andruw is pretty clearly the best defensive center fielder of all time. The only guy who is even remotely close is Willie Mays. According to Fangraphs, Andruw had an absurd career 281.3 defensive rating. Willie Mays has a 170.1, Mantle has a negative 78.1, Ken Griffey has a negative 39.6, Cobb has a negative 90, etc... Jones has the biggest gap at his position between him and the second best (Mays) of any other all time defender at their position except for Brooks Robinson. That means that he is clearly one of the best defensive players of all time, regardless of his position. If you just go by the Def rating of 281.3, he is the best outfielder of all time and the 8th best defensive player of all time. All of the guys ahead of him are infielders and all of them are in the hall of fame, except Mark Belanger who was an awful hitter.

The TLDR is that Jones is the best defensive outfielder of all time, and it isn't particularly close. I have a feeling that Jones is going to end up being snubbed and in 20 years people are going to look back and realize that him not being in the hall is a travesty.
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No, I'm saying he's not as good. Offense and defense combined. Snider you can probably make a case for as I think overall Andruw and Snider are pretty similar overall value that the arguments can be made either way.
 
zitothebrave said:
No, I'm saying he's not as good. Offense and defense combined. Snider you can probably make a case for as I think overall Andruw and Snider are pretty similar overall value that the arguments can be made either way.
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Ohhhhh well then yeah he is definitely not Mays or Mantle caliber overall. I just read it as him not being as good defensively which really threw me for a loop lol. But yeah, I think Andruw's biggest problem is baseball writers not understanding just how good he was defensively. Either that or they just don't value defense properly
 
Who's been telling that when the votes are in, you would all be very disappointed in the results? Most of the writers don't give a flip about FG. More than any other sport, the selection process is transparent. In this morning's USA Today, Their writers shared their votes, and explained notable omissions. Thome is getting in, but one didn't vote for him. He said he didn't even see Thome as the biggest contributor on those Indians teams and perceived him to be one dimensional. His opinion is no less valid than others.

Some of you really need to evaluate this from a wider perspective. You have to weigh the negatives of the candidacy as much as the positives. Then, would you be constantly carrying on this crusade if he played for another team? Don't let fanboy homerism cloud your judgment. He's not in the conversation. Perception is "Hall of Very Good" for him. Chipper's case is much more clear cut: in Top 3 3B and switch hitter of all time.
 
Knucksie said:
Who's been telling that when the votes are in, you would all be very disappointed in the results? Most of the writers don't give a flip about FG. More than any other sport, the selection process is transparent. In this morning's USA Today, Their writers shared their votes, and explained notable omissions. Thome is getting in, but one didn't vote for him. He said he didn't even see Thome as the biggest contributor on thise Indians teams and perceived him to be one dimensional. His opinion is no less valid than others.

Some of you really need to evaluate this from a wider perspective. You have to weigh the negatives of the candidacy as much as the positives. Then, would you be constantly carrying on this crusade if he played for another team? Don't let fanboy homerism cloud your judgment. He's no in the conversation. Perception is "Hall of Very Good" for him. Chipper's case is much more clear cut: in Top 3 3B and switch hitter of all time.
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I would disagree. A person voting no on Thome clearly doesn't know how to valuate players properly. There is also the person who voted no on Chipper for what he said regarding Sandy Hook. To me it's clear they don't really know what they are talking about. Just because they write for a newspaper for a period of time doesn't mean their opinion holds more weight than educated baseball fans.
 
clvclv said:
It's obviously not just his defense, but the fact that he was arguably the best defensive CF of all-time SHOULD put him over the top - not trying to stay on the ballot. Compared to the group widely considered as the best CFs ever...

1.) More 2Bs (383) than Duke Snider (358), Ty Cobb (295), or Mickey Mantle (344) - and just shy of Joe Dimaggio (389).

2.) More HRs (434) than Joe Dimaggio (361), Duke Snider (407), and Ty Cobb (117).

3.) More SBs (152) than Joe Dimaggio (30), Duke Snider (99), and just shy of Mickey Mantle (153). Ken Griffey Jr. only had 32 more.
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Cherry picking counting stats and the names around him on the all time list for those stats makes Braves fans look completely ignorant.

This "argument" likely hurts his chances since it's so moronic.
 
BeanieAntics said:
Ohhhhh well then yeah he is definitely not Mays or Mantle caliber overall. I just read it as him not being as good defensively which really threw me for a loop lol. But yeah, I think Andruw's biggest problem is baseball writers not understanding just how good he was defensively. Either that or they just don't value defense properly
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I think what hurts Andruw was that he wasn't as amazing as his potential was. His potential was WIllie Mays and he fell short of that and it hurts some of his value. There is a certain amount of his defense that isn't appropriately valued. Andruw's defense was truly special. And what he did defensively coupled with his weight had a lot to do with his failure to play late into his career.
 
smootness said:
Andruw is far and away the best defensive OF of all time and arguably the greatest defensive player at any position ever. And he hit 434 HR. And he did it all in essentially 10 years. He should be an absolute slam-dunk HOFer.
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Look at Andruw vs. the guys who got in primarily for defense: Maz, Ozzie, Brooks. Is Maz in the top echelon of offensive 2Bs of all time? Not even close. Ozzie? Perhaps a better offensive player than Maz, but nope, even though both had dramatic post-season homers. Brooks? Like Ozzie, his counting stats aren't bad for a guy at his position, but nope.

Their positional contemporaries like Tony Taylor, Dave Concepcion, and Ken Boyer were better offensive guys than they were (and not defensive slouches), but didn't make the Hall.

I'm not arguing that Maz, Ozzie, and Brooks shouldn't be in the Hall. But if they are HoFers, and they are, Andruw should be in. He is as good, if not better, defensively than they were, and much better offensively, compared to others at the position.
 
Mazeroski got voted in by the Veterans Committee. So completely different situation. Brooks Robinson had solid offensive credentials. Ozzie Smith, like these other two, had the dramatic post-season. For whatever it matters, Brooks and Ozzie were both obviously very popular with media and fans.
 
Knucksie said:
Mazeroski got voted in by the Veterans Committee. So completely different situation. Brooks Robinson had solid offensive credentials. Ozzie Smith, like these other two, had the dramatic pre-season. For whatever it matters, Brooks and Ozzie were both obviously very popular with media and fans.
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Sadly it matters a lot when it's the actual media that votes on these things.

Taking emotion out of it and simply looking at his performance on the field and comparing it to others at his position and others already in the hall then he should be in as well. He's no lock like Chipper is because he fell off too quick but the numbers are there.
 
JCarbo76 said:
Look at Andruw vs. the guys who got in primarily for defense: Maz, Ozzie, Brooks. Is Maz in the top echelon of offensive 2Bs of all time? Not even close. Ozzie? Perhaps a better offensive player than Maz, but nope, even though both had dramatic post-season homers. Brooks? Like Ozzie, his counting stats aren't bad for a guy at his position, but nope.

Their positional contemporaries like Tony Taylor, Dave Concepcion, and Ken Boyer were better offensive guys than they were (and not defensive slouches), but didn't make the Hall.

I'm not arguing that Maz, Ozzie, and Brooks shouldn't be in the Hall. But if they are HoFers, and they are, Andruw should be in. He is as good, if not better, defensively than they were, and much better offensively, compared to others at the position.
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Slight edit. Here's a search of those 4, all of whom have the highest DWar at their position. Of players who have at least 7000 plate appearances and 50% of games played at their positions, here is the WAR ranking of each: Ozzie 4 out of 49 qualified at his position, Brooks, 7/42, Andruw 11/45, Maz, 31/41.
 
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