Fangraphs Top 100 Prospects

nsacpi said:
Not exactly the same. But Coppy also inherited some top prospects. Acuna, Albies. Even Camargo who could yet emerge as a regular. And of course, all of the young major league talent he was able to trade away. Coppy had one very good draft (2015) and one great trade (with Dave Stewart). Otherwise, he was mediocre to downright incompetent.
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I actually like the '16 and '17 draft classes as well, the '17 class moreso than the '16. I had no problem with Coppy's drafting outside of drafting high risk pitching, although it seemed like he had some pretty good scouting in place on them. In those two classes he acquired 4 players who have appeared on a top 100 list this year and a few other pretty intriguing guys like Waters, Davidson, and Muller. On top of the three he acquired in '15. I think 7 top 100 guys in 3 drafts is a pretty good drafting resume. We still have to see how a lot of those picks turn out, but I am willing to give him credit on that. All the other stuff was less than optimal and I've always kind of been of the belief that Hart and Scheurholz were behind a lot of the moves.
 
thewupk said:
About what? Coppy had a ton of talent infused into the team with the various trades of Simmons, Kimbrel, Heyward, Gattis, and Upton. That group was praised for bringing in all that talent. Making shrewd moves like getting Kemp for that albatross HO and so forth. All moves to allow the team to compete in 2017 with the opening of the new stadium. But that didn't happen. Seems like building a winning is a little harder than you might think.
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They didn't try to build a winner in 2017. They tried to luck into one. Big difference.
 
When did Wu start trolling professionally?

I think any analysis of Wren does have to begin with recognition of limited payroll and clear marching orders to compete ever season.

With that said, I didn't care for most of his acquisitions and many of them failed spectacularly. I don't think he ever really built a team close to being able to win a world series.

He had some bad pitching injury luck that ultimately caused the rebuild.

I totally agree and always have agreed that blowing things up isn't that hard.
 
I think Wren rightfully takes a beating for his FA signings, but it was his regime's lack of success in the draft that I feel was the biggest problem.

I think Coppy gained the respect of a lot of us for assembling a better organizational staff to address scouting and the draft, and that good will let us ignore some of his faults. Those staff changes seem to have resulted in a significant improvement in draft results, so the Johns triumvirate certainly deserve some credit for that. It's too bad they were so terrible at selling off young skilled players, we would be even more stacked than we are had they done that competently.
 
thethe said:
Agree with this. I'm still in the Mallex corner. It's just a no brainer to have gohara at this point even with the risk of injury.
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I like Mallex but my problem with him was that for all his speed he does not have good jumps/routes in the OF. His poor instincts will keep him from ever reaching near Inciarte’s peak unless he steps it up with the bat. As is, I feel he is a 1.5-2 WAR guy instead of a 3-4 one like Ender.
 
Oklahomabrave said:
I like Mallex but my problem with him was that for all his speed he does not have good jumps/routes in the OF. His poor instincts will keep him from ever reaching near Inciarte’s peak unless he steps it up with the bat. As is, I feel he is a 1.5-2 WAR guy instead of a 3-4 one like Ender.
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I remember Fredi playing Mallex in center and Ender in left. And as soon as he came in, Snit installed Ender in center. That alone told me Snit had fewer cobwebs covering the synapses than Fredi.
 
Knucksie said:
Yeah, wasn't there a board meltdown about that one at the time? Mallex Smith was supposed to be the "same as Inciarte" and future 3.0 WAR."
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Not quite but close. A lessor version of Ender but good enough that trading Ender would overall improve the team. That and he is a better player than Kemp currently is. They did seem to hit on the lottery pick they got in Gohara though.
 
Southcack77 said:
When did Wu start trolling professionally?

I think any analysis of Wren does have to begin with recognition of limited payroll and clear marching orders to compete ever season.

With that said, I didn't care for most of his acquisitions and many of them failed spectacularly. I don't think he ever really built a team close to being able to win a world series.

He had some bad pitching injury luck that ultimately caused the rebuild.

I totally agree and always have agreed that blowing things up isn't that hard.
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And that's likely what plagued the rebuild that Coppy inheirted as well.

Hopefully at this point AA has the complete reigns on the team and can do as he sees fit.
 
nsacpi said:
Yeah. The Gohara trade was a gutsy one. He deserves a lot of credit for it.
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I admit I puzzled at that one initially. It was a gutsy move. Gohara was a fat kid with potential injury concerns and whispers about character...also, a lot of the contemporaneous scouting projected him as a reliever. Looked like magic beans to me.

It's a good lesson. Mallex may end up as a nice player (I tend to think he will) but I'm thrilled to see what Gohara does going forward.
 
thewupk said:
Well now you know.

Wren put a winner on the field without getting the chance to properly rebuild either time he needed to. He wasn't perfect but 10 times better than what we had recently.
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Wren was "mostly" good at moves at the major league level. But he sucked at basically every other facet of managing an MLB franchise, clearly was not a good evaluator of talent, and reportedly was hard to work with/for.

I'd take him back over Coppy simply because of the HO trade alone, but it's hard to ignore the faults of Wren that led to the rebuild.
 
Carp said:
Wren was "mostly" good at moves at the major league level. But he sucked at basically every other facet of managing an MLB franchise, clearly was not a good evaluator of talent, and reportedly was hard to work with/for.

I'd take him back over Coppy simply because of the HO trade alone, but it's hard to ignore the faults of Wren that led to the rebuild.
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Wrens biggest issue to me, and it's a big one, was the inability to get talent out of the draft. Horrible luck in the pitching dept with the lack of anything to back it up in the minors is what ended up leading to the rebuild.
 
Julio3000 said:
I admit I puzzled at that one initially. It was a gutsy move. Gohara was a fat kid with potential injury concerns and whispers about character...also, a lot of the contemporaneous scouting projected him as a reliever. Looked like magic beans to me.

It's a good lesson. Mallex may end up as a nice player (I tend to think he will) but I'm thrilled to see what Gohara does going forward.
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There was one thing to like about that trade from the start. We were clearly getting the player with the highest upside. As a rule with prospects, I like trades where we end up with the highest upside guy.
 
thewupk said:
Wrens biggest issue to me, and it's a big one, was the inability to get talent out of the draft. Horrible luck in the pitching dept with the lack of anything to back it up in the minors is what ended up leading to the rebuild.
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I think his drafts were poor. But when you take into account where we were drafting (some years we did not even have a first round pick), they were not atrocious.
 
nsacpi said:
I think his drafts were poor. But when you take into account where we were drafting (some years we did not even have a first round pick), they were not atrocious.
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The worst thing about those drafts was the philosophy. We never would play the slot game and sign people to over slot bonuses which led us to miss out on higher end talent.
 
nsacpi said:
I think his drafts were poor. But when you take into account where we were drafting (some years we did not even have a first round pick), they were not atrocious.
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we've touched on this, but one of the years we didn't have a 1st round pick because he decided signing a 65 year old glavine was more valuable. so if anything that's a massive mark against him.
 
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