Legal/scotus thread

bravesnumberone said:
I guess Flake and Coons are to be commended for trying to restore some semblance of sanity to this. I don't think they can pick and choose what allegations the FBI investigates, or how long it takes, though. All credible allegations (with names attached) need to be vetted. It's the fairest thing to the accusers. It's the fairest thing to Kavanaugh. Idk why that's so goddamn difficult for some people to comprehend.
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I think the issue is that the FBI investigation is simply a delay tactic. There's not a soul alive who actually expects it to turn anything up. It sounds nice. "Oh we should do our due diligence. We should leave no stone unturned. We owe it to these people to give them this investigation." It's all pretty language and convenient excuses.

Here's the brass tacks of it. There's not a Dem out there who will have their mind actually changed by an FBI investigation. If they aren't going to vote for Kavanaugh now, an FBI investigation saying that no one remembers this event and there's no evidence of it happening wont change their mind. A lack of evidence will be excused as being the result of the passage of time and this event not sticking out in anyone else's mind. An FBI investigation wont change that.

The reason the Dems have been howling about an investigation is to get a delay. Delay helps them. They can try to shake the trees and find more people willing to accuse Kavanaugh (whether legitimate or not). Delay gives them more news cycles to run with this story. Delay gets them closer to the election. Delay gives them more time to flip moderate Republicans. Delay eats up time the Republicans would need if they were to have to try to confirm someone else.

This is politics. It's not about the truth, doing due diligence, or giving people what they deserve, it's about power and influence.

Again, I have to tip my hat to the Dems. They're playing this well.
 
Julio3000 said:
I’ve been banging this drum for a while, but this is one of the biggest issues to me. The language that Kavanaugh and the Rs kept using was “refuted,” etc, which is simply not an accurate assessment, legally or otherwise. It’s also not an accident.

Kavanaugh mischaracterized this. Kav, Cornyn, and I think Cruz (may have been others) also inaccurately characterized the NYT posture towards Ramirez’s story. This is also not an accident.

It’s a tangential detail, but Kav also asserted, incorrectly, that he and his cohorts were drinking legally during their senior year. He was 17 when Maryland changed their state law to make the legal age for beer 18. Any of his friends who were 18 at the time the law changed might’ve been legal, but he wasn’t. It’s inconsequential detail, but to me it speaks to his willingness to lie about any detail, no matter how trivial, to underpin the ridiculous narrative of his spotless character.

In concert with his obvious bull****ting about his sensitive stomach, the yearbooks, his drinking—to say nothing of his history of dissembling under oath—it blows my mind that anyone would weigh his testimony as being more credible than Dr Ford’s.
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Don't forget him being a virgin into well into his college years as well. He is willing to lie about any point, no matter how trivial or unbelievable that point may be.

It's no mystery why Trump likes this guy so much...
 
Anyone who buys the idea that Feinstein would have respected Ford's wishes and stayed quiet about this if that was she wanted doesn't come close to understanding the viciousness of Washington politics. Feinstein would have tied Ford to a stone alter and sacrificed her to Aztec gods if that was what it would have taken to keep another Trump pick off the SCOTUS. She'd have done it and whistled while she did it.

To be fair, if tying Ford to a stone alter and sacrificing her to Aztec gods would get Kavanaugh confirmed, the Republicans on that committee would be fighting over the knife.

Just know that not a soul on that committee really cared about Ford. Not really. They might personally admire her for what she did but in the end she's just a pawn on a chess board.
 
striker42 said:
I think the issue is that the FBI investigation is simply a delay tactic. There's not a soul alive who actually expects it to turn anything up. It sounds nice. "Oh we should do our due diligence. We should leave no stone unturned. We owe it to these people to give them this investigation." It's all pretty language and convenient excuses.

Here's the brass tacks of it. There's not a Dem out there who will have their mind actually changed by an FBI investigation. If they aren't going to vote for Kavanaugh now, an FBI investigation saying that no one remembers this event and there's no evidence of it happening wont change their mind. A lack of evidence will be excused as being the result of the passage of time and this event not sticking out in anyone else's mind. An FBI investigation wont change that.

The reason the Dems have been howling about an investigation is to get a delay. Delay helps them. They can try to shake the trees and find more people willing to accuse Kavanaugh (whether legitimate or not). Delay gives them more news cycles to run with this story. Delay gets them closer to the election. Delay gives them more time to flip moderate Republicans. Delay eats up time the Republicans would need if they were to have to try to confirm someone else.

This is politics. It's not about the truth, doing due diligence, or giving people what they deserve, it's about power and influence.

Again, I have to tip my hat to the Dems. They're playing this well.
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I mean those are some fair and valid points, but I just don't see where Democrats are looking to "shake the trees" to find new accusations. It seems like they want to try to limit the scope, which I'm not really sure you can. The FBI investigation really would not be necessary if the committee took its job seriously enough to have Judge, Ramirez and Swetnick at a minimum come in and testify under oath. I'm not talking about a sworn statement where it's just "Uh, I don't know anything but I'm an alcoholic and I don't like public speaking." That **** doesn't cut it. They shouldn't be allowed to just ignore an allegation with a name attached because they don't like her loud-mouth lawyer.
 
Enscheff said:
Don't forget him being a virgin into well into his college years as well. He is willing to lie about any point, no matter how trivial or unbelievable that point may be.

It's no mystery why Trump likes this guy so much...
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His lying about the smallest stuff (like whether he watched her testimony or whether he was legal to drink in high school in Maryland) made me suspicious he isn't being forthcoming. His rage, baseless allegations of a coordinated left-wing conspiracy as revenge for the Clintons and his vow of "what goes around comes around" confirmed to me he should never be allowed to sit on the court. I wasn't that offput by his anger and emotion at the situation until that all started. If I was innocent I would probably flip a table over and yell BS.
 
bravesnumberone said:
I mean those are some fair and valid points, but I just don't see where Democrats are looking to "shake the trees" to find new accusations. It seems like they want to try to limit the scope, which I'm not really sure you can. The FBI investigation really would not be necessary if the committee took its job seriously enough to have Judge, Ramirez and Swetnick at a minimum come in and testify under oath. I'm not talking about a sworn statement where it's just "Uh, I don't know anything but I'm an alcoholic and I don't like public speaking." That **** doesn't cut it. They shouldn't be allowed to just ignore an allegation with a name attached because they don't like her loud-mouth lawyer.
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I don't think even the Dems really wanted Ramirez and Swetnick there. Ford's claims were by far the most credible and those other two would probably have just watered Ford's statements down.
 
striker42 said:
I think the issue is that the FBI investigation is simply a delay tactic. There's not a soul alive who actually expects it to turn anything up. It sounds nice. "Oh we should do our due diligence. We should leave no stone unturned. We owe it to these people to give them this investigation." It's all pretty language and convenient excuses.

Here's the brass tacks of it. There's not a Dem out there who will have their mind actually changed by an FBI investigation. If they aren't going to vote for Kavanaugh now, an FBI investigation saying that no one remembers this event and there's no evidence of it happening wont change their mind. A lack of evidence will be excused as being the result of the passage of time and this event not sticking out in anyone else's mind. An FBI investigation wont change that.

The reason the Dems have been howling about an investigation is to get a delay. Delay helps them. They can try to shake the trees and find more people willing to accuse Kavanaugh (whether legitimate or not). Delay gives them more news cycles to run with this story. Delay gets them closer to the election. Delay gives them more time to flip moderate Republicans. Delay eats up time the Republicans would need if they were to have to try to confirm someone else.

This is politics. It's not about the truth, doing due diligence, or giving people what they deserve, it's about power and influence.

Again, I have to tip my hat to the Dems. They're playing this well.
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They completely botched the questioning of Kav though. They came across as barely competent in that hearing. The Dem senator who blurted out "Do you believe Anita Hill?" at the end of his 5 minutes is a complete bumbling buffoon who has no business being present in such a process.

Kav was allowed to sidestep every single question they asked him, was allowed to draw out his answers to run down the 5 minute clock, and more or less completely dominated the exchanges with the Libs.

Meanwhile, the GOP guys stuck to a coherent story and hammered it home time and time again. That story being, "The Dems are using this as a delay tactic, nothing more. The investigation they want is already happening by this committee". Followed up with a succinct final line of questioning "This is your last chance to be right with God...did you do it?", that will resonate extremely well with Bible thumpers in their base.

As usual, the Dems looked like children trying to step up to an older bully...and failing.
 
bravesnumberone said:
His lying about the smallest stuff (like whether he watched her testimony or whether he was legal to drink in high school in Maryland) made me suspicious he isn't being forthcoming. His rage, baseless allegations of a coordinated left-wing conspiracy as revenge for the Clintons and his vow of "what goes around comes around" confirmed to me he should never be allowed to sit on the court. I wasn't that offput by his anger and emotion at the situation until that all started. If I was innocent I would probably flip a table over and yell BS.
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He was also evasive on every direct question. He couldn't even answer "Do you think so-andso is lying?" point blank yes/no questions. All were side-stepped.
 
Yep. I thought Sheldon Whitehouse at least showed some of a spine today. I thought Harris and Booker playing this game of I'm gonna just walk out was cowardice.
 
Enscheff said:
They completely botched the questioning of Kav though. They came across as barely competent in that hearing. The Dem senator who blurted out "Do you believe Anita Hill?" at the end of his 5 minutes is a complete bumbling buffoon who has no business being present in such a process.

Kav was allowed to sidestep every single question they asked him, was allowed to draw out his answers to run down the 5 minute clock, and more or less completely dominated the exchanges with the Libs.

Meanwhile, the GOP guys stuck to a coherent story and hammered it home time and time again. That story being, "The Dems are using this as a delay tactic, nothing more. The investigation they want is already happening by this committee". Followed up with a succinct final line of questioning "This is your last chance to be right with God...did you do it?", that will resonate extremely well with Bible thumpers in their base.

As usual, the Dems looked like children trying to step up to an older bully...and failing.
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The questioning was a a great move by the Republicans. I thought the 5 minute back and forth hurt them a little with Ford as the prosecutor wasn't really able to dig into any point before having to stop but in the end, Ford's statement was so vague on so many details that it made digging virtually impossible. Where the questioning really had its impact was when Kavanaugh was being questioned. Him being able to run out the clock and keeping the Dems from having any kind of sustained interrogation against him was very beneficial to the GOP and Kavanaugh.

I thought the dumbest thing the Dems did in their questioning was asking him about his yearbook. I'm just sitting there thinking "Are they really asking about the brags and dumb jokes of a teenage boy? Has this guy ever set foot in a high school?"
 
striker42 said:
The questioning was a a great move by the Republicans. I thought the 5 minute back and forth hurt them a little with Ford as the prosecutor wasn't really able to dig into any point before having to stop but in the end, Ford's statement was so vague on so many details that it made digging virtually impossible. Where the questioning really had its impact was when Kavanaugh was being questioned. Him being able to run out the clock and keeping the Dems from having any kind of sustained interrogation against him was very beneficial to the GOP and Kavanaugh.

I thought the dumbest thing the Dems did in their questioning was asking him about his yearbook. I'm just sitting there thinking "Are they really asking about the brags and dumb jokes of a teenage boy? Has this guy ever set foot in a high school?"
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The GOP isn't trying to win over anyone who isn't already in favor of Kav. All they were trying to do was not piss off members of their base and lose votes they already had in the bag. Simply allowing Ford to state her case, call her brave, and leave her be was all they had to do to accomplish that.

Then they just had to cast enough doubt on the Dems agenda behind the delay to justify ramming Kav through...much in the same way he rammed through women as a teenager.
 
Enscheff said:
He was also evasive on every direct question. He couldn't even answer "Do you think so-andso is lying?" point blank yes/no questions. All were side-stepped.
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I don't really have an issue with evasive answers to questions. That's kind of part of the game with SCOTUS nominees. I think the problem was the he inartfully side-stepped a lot of questions.

I was kind of surprised he didn't have some clever answers prepared. "Do you think X was lying?" could be answered with "I really don't have enough evidence to form an opinion one way or another." All the questions about whether he had ever been black out drunk could have been answered with a calm "I have no recollection of ever blacking out drunk."

There were also a lot of questions by Dems clearly trying to get him to talk about youthful indiscretions. Those should have been laughed off. An answer of "I was a dumb kid and did some things I shouldn't have. I don't think there's anyone here who didn't do stupid things when they were young. But there's a big difference between being a dumb kid and being a rapist."
 
Enscheff said:
The GOP isn't trying to win over anyone who isn't already in favor of Kav. All they were trying to do was not piss off members of their base and lose votes they already had in the bag. Simply allowing Ford to state her case, call her brave, and leave her be was all they had to do to accomplish that.

Then they just had to cast enough doubt on the Dems agenda behind the delay to justify ramming Kav through...much in the same way he rammed through women as a teenager.
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Getting that female prosecutor was brilliant. The last thing the GOP wanted was to be a bunch of old white men appearing to tear into a clearly traumatized woman.
 
Two observations:

1) It is clear that one party regards time as an ally and the other regards it as an enemy.

2) Over the next week, the FBI will not be the only ones investigating this matter.
 
I'm shocked at this turn. I fully expected to wake up today to the Honorable...ahem, Justice Kavanaugh.
 
I've never liked Cory Booker. He tries too hard to be the next BO of the party. And it just comes off as so inauthentic.
 
nsacpi said:
Two observations:

1) It is clear that one party regards time as an ally and the other regards it as an enemy.

2) Over the next week, the FBI will not be the only ones investigating this matter.
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? You mean press or someone else?

I think ultimately he gets 51-52 votes and is confirmed.
 
The person all this has shown to be the biggest idiot in Congress is Sen Hirono. Some of the stuff she's said has been downright crazy.
 
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