Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
I'd do that for Kluber, not Paxton.
Kluber Paxton Greinke and Others
- Thread starter nsacpi
- Start date
I'd do that for Kluber, not Paxton.
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
Some pitchers wont pan out, some will get hurt, some will turn out good. But Braves window isnt gonna be open forever. Gotta make big moves if the team wants to do big things. Cant be afraid to make trades.
bravesfanMatt
Steve Harvey'd
I am fine with trading guys. Just want impact bats. Not more pitching.
Southcack77
Well-known member
you can only have so many guys in the bullpen. And there are only so many ways of managing splits and matchups. There is a limit to the efficiency to holding on to all of these guys. And the best use of a player with starting stuff isn't to convert him into a specialist.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
It depends on the pitcher for me. Kluber would be as beneficial as an impact bat because of the need for a legit TOR pitcher. Paxton, I like a lot, but I likely wouldn't give what it'd take to acquire him.
Southcack77
Well-known member
Overpay for Paxton, maybe an underpay for Kluber. I agree.
Southcack77
Well-known member
The elite rotation got them into the World Series in 2015.
It was banged up this year, but I would attribute their failures this season more to injuries to Cespedes, Jay Bruce, Todd frazier and their general failure to produce offense.
All the more reason to have 15 of them ready to make a start at any given point. The Gnats had TWO Aces at the top of their rotation and absolutely folded when they weren't starting. Philly had Nola, Kluber, and not much. These guys aren't Wisler and Sims who stand little chance of keeping you in a game. Fill the holes, improve the bench, and do something to fix what was a God-awful pen.
"Spahn and Sain And Pray For Rain" couldn't be more appropriate for some teams. This organization has more high-end talent than any other one in baseball - deploy it right, quit walking so *amn many hitters, and go win games.
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Yeah..that's the point. They gave the Dodgers all they could handle with a terrible rotation. Maybe someone needs to go tell them how much they needed a "frontline starter"?
So what you're saying is a team needs many good players...
Again, the Braves do not need to go out and get a "frontline starter" as some sort of prerequisite for post season success. That tired old cliche needs to stay in the 90s.
If the M's love Newk and are willing to give up Paxton for Newk plus Allard...then yes, get the "frontline starter". If it requires some market rate exchange of prospect value I would prefer the Braves focus on position players first because there are already many young talented options to take the mound.
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nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Agreed. I started this thread because I saw a potential opportunity based on what Seattle, Arizona and Cleveland were trying to accomplish. It is possible that a player like Newcomb will check off some boxes for the GM for one of those teams and allow us to upgrade the starting rotation. If not, we have other priorities to fill.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
If its Newcomb plus lower prospects for Kluber or Paxton then its a no brainer
Southcack77
Well-known member
Do championship teams require good offense and defense? Mind blown.
Sarcasm aside, this is a bit of a non-sequitur. The Braves don't have to choose between having great starting pitching and great hitting. They have the resources and the budget to field both.
I totally agree with you that the acquisition costs matters a whole lot. I wouldn't give up the world for it unless it was the last piece that needed to be addressed. I don't know the Braves are there year, but I'm interested to see what the offseason looks like. My heart wants them to take a modified all in approach that cashes in a lot of chips without overdoing it and without tying them down to big long term deals for aging vets. My head sometimes tells me that maybe they just need to chill out and be content with possibly not be a champion right now.
............
If championship teams having great starting pitching is a relic of the 90s, why do pretty much all of the World Series participants still feature top of the rotation talent now that we are nearly into the 2020s?
I realize that you don't believe in investing in pitching. I think you are a little bit too far down the path. The practical limitations of playoff rosters and the matchups you see in postseason make starting pitching as vital as ever, IMO. I don't believe it's particularly feasible to manage around its lack.
It's not going to guarantee you anything, but it's going to increase your chances. I don't think it is any accident the best staffs regularly advance.
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Exactly. Newk may fit the "young cheap potential impact SP who is ready now" role those teams might be looking for in a trade like this. Fried might fit that role as well too. Some team may also still think Allard is an MLB SP.
The Indians and M's for sure are looking for those types of players. The M's just acquired Mallex Smith, and the Indians are definitely looking to reduce payroll without getting appreciably worse.
If they happen to overvalue guys like Newk, Fried and Allard then a nice value for a "frontline starter" might be there for the Braves.
This is not at all accurate. I am all for investing in talent that returns the most value. I loved investing top picks in Wright and Stewart because they represented the best value available. The bulk of any trade package from the Braves will be young pitching, and I don’t want to see them waste that value. I like pitching assets just fine.
The Braves have already invested significant resources into pitching. They now have gaping holes at C and cOF. They do not have gaping holes in the rotation.
The Braves have enough overall pitching talent to win a title, even if that talent may not be ready just yet. They do not have enough C or cOF talent to win a title, so I am in favor of spending resources there.
It's really a simple case of resource management. Address the gaping holes, then move onto the cracks and blemishes.
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This is the precise type of overpay for a "frontline starter" I'm talking about.
That package from the Braves is worth ~$90M ($42M for Wright, $43M for Riley, $5M for Weigel), and Paxton carries only ~$65M in surplus value (8.8 wins for ~$20M). I expect an M's fansite to err in the M's favor, but that is just silly.
Newk plus Allard for Paxton? Sure.
Riley plus Allard for Paxton? Sign me up.
GovClintonTyree
<B>Vencer a Los Doyers</B>
The Mariners ("control the zone") won't have interest in Newcomb at all. I suppose it's possible somebody will want to wait on him in one of those deals. It was a lot easier when Dave Stewart was around. And the Mariners will get a nice return for Paxton on the order of the Wright Weigel Riley discussion above. The surplus value on the prospect side is a quantification, but less certain than projecting the Paxton side. They'll get at least that from someone. Yankees and Astros are both interested.
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
We need both, like it or not.
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
We agree here. cOF and C are the biggest holes as well as bench, and bullpen. If AA fills all that, and the Braves have enough prospect capital/money left, then see whats out there in the SP trade market.
But i wouldnt empty the farm for one unless the trade was in the Braves favor.
If they do, pat Dipoto on the back and sit back and laugh with everyone else at the GM that does something like that. A drastic overpay for that particular piece only makes sense if you're the Yankees and you think giving up Sheffield and Florial for Paxton and paying whatever it takes to get Corbin gets you past the Red Sox and Astros. That might be the case for them, because a Paxton/Severino/Corbin/Tanaka/Sabathia rotation with that much offense supporting them would HAVE to be the favorites for the next couple years.
I want an Ace as badly as anyone else, but we're just not in a position where that's our last piece. If AA got Grandal or Realmuto, another corner OF, a Closer, bench help like Gonzalez, and could add Camargo to the bench if Riley's ready to take over at 3B in July, I'd be all for using the pieces that are left to go get Kluber, Carrasco, or Paxton - just not right now - we've still got too many holes to fill. If you think about it, if the Gnats added Grandal or Realmuto, LeMahieu or Dozier, and Corbin/Keuchel/Happ with the money they were going to pay Harper and the money they were paying Wieters OR the Phillies get Machado or Harper and go on a spending spree the Braves might not even be the favorites in the NL East next season even with one of those guys at the top of the rotation.