The Trump Presidency

[nsacpi]

So while many are focusing on the quid pro quo portion, I'm looking at whether there's evidence that Trump knew an investigation was bogus.

None of us can enter another person's mind. Given that, we can only rely on whether his actions are consistent with a genuine interest in rooting out corruption. I'll let you know when I find any evidence of that. It is odd that his interest seems to be so specifically tied to Biden. Why not his buddies Parnas and Fruman.

 

[striker42]

One problem I have with this line of thinking is that it would easily devolve into a current Jim Jordan line of defense "well, when the whistleblower report came out, they released the hold on the aid without the investigations and the Ukrainians cancelled Zelensky's interview with Fareed, so there was no crime." Cancelling the crime because you realize you've just been caught should not be a defense.

That's why attempt is usually a crime as well. So I don't see completion as necessary.

The problem here is that a lot relies on subjective mental states. It's why I want to see evidence of what Trump actually believe in regards to Biden.

 

[nsacpi]

That's why attempt is usually a crime as well. So I don't see completion as necessary.

The problem here is that a lot relies on subjective mental states. It's why I want to see evidence of what Trump actually believe in regards to Biden.

chosen one reads the polls and sees Biden polling better against him than the other Dems. That's one piece of evidence to consider.

 

[striker42]

chosen one reads the polls and sees Biden polling better against him than the other Dems. That's one piece of evidence to consider.

Chosen one is also crazy enough to believe every conspiracy theory he comes across that benefits him. As a friend of mine put it, the defense is almost "too crazy to crime".

 

[nsacpi]

Chosen one is also crazy enough to believe every conspiracy theory he comes across that benefits him. As a friend of mine put it, the defense is almost "too crazy to crime".

that's right...so if chosen one thinks i'm a little green man from Mars who needs to be investigated that's good enough?...I mean it's so crazy it might be true

that might well be his best defense by now

 

[Snowman]

Chosen one is also crazy enough to believe every conspiracy theory he comes across that benefits him. As a friend of mine put it, the defense is almost "too crazy to crime".

I know this isn't really what you were saying, but I would hope we could all agree that having a President so incapable he could not be held responsible for criminal actions because he isn't living in the real world would in itself be an argument for ASAP removal (but not A$AP Rocky removal).

 

[striker42]

that's right...so if chosen one thinks i'm a little green man from Mars who needs to be investigated that's good enough?

that might well be his best defense by now

If he actually believed you were a little green man from Mars then it's probably good enough to save him from impeachment (at least for me). Of course that would also be good evidence that he's mentally unfit to serve. I'd probably be more likely to agree with that method of removing him from office at this point. I actually do have concerns as to whether the early stages of mental decline have made him unfit for the office.

 

[nsacpi]

If he actually believed you were a little green man from Mars then it's probably good enough to save him from impeachment (at least for me). Of course that would also be good evidence that he's mentally unfit to serve. I'd probably be more likely to agree with that method of removing him from office at this point. I actually do have concerns as to whether the early stages of mental decline have made him unfit for the office.

would that apply to anyone in law enforcement...all they need is a belief that i'm a little green man from Mars...that's all it takes to start an investigation?...some sort of sincere belief?...and if i'm running for sheriff against them well that's just a coincidence

 

[striker42]

would that apply to anyone in law enforcement...all they need is a belief that i'm a little green man from Mars...that's all it takes to start an investigation?...some sort of sincere belief?

In practice that's often how it shakes out. But the analogy is bad here. The President's foreign policy powers are vast. Additionally, there are different standards for crimes and constitutional torts.

 

[Snowman]

If he actually believed you were a little green man from Mars then it's probably good enough to save him from impeachment (at least for me). Of course that would also be good evidence that he's mentally unfit to serve. I'd probably be more likely to agree with that method of removing him from office at this point. I actually do have concerns as to whether the early stages of mental decline have made him unfit for the office.

I think you're... being naive isn't quite right, but putting a bit too much faith in systems not designed for that purpose. The 25th doesn't allow for him to be removed for unfitness in any real way as long as he is conscious. The cabinet could try, but he would be notified, and could the simply notify the Senate that he is fit and fire every Cabinet member who was disloyal, ending the attempt at removal. So if you set such a high bar for impeachment that committing crimes out of insanity doesn't qualify, you are in effect arguing insane Presidents should be left in office.

 

[nsacpi]

The President's foreign policy powers are vast.

Sure. And I think the Congress' latitude as to what constitutes an impeachable crime is also fairly open-ended. If enough members came to the belief chosen one is a little green man from mars they could kick him out for that.

 

[striker42]

I think you're... being naive isn't quite right, but putting a bit too much faith in systems not designed for that purpose. The 25th doesn't allow for him to be removed for unfitness in any real way as long as he is conscious. The cabinet could try, but he would be notified, and could the simply notify the Senate that he is fit and fire every Cabinet member who was disloyal, ending the attempt at removal. So if you set such a high bar for impeachment that committing crimes out of insanity doesn't qualify, you are in effect arguing insane Presidents should be left in office.

25th Amendment- Section 4:

"Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office."

The President can't simply tell the Senate he's fit and fire the Cabinet. Those people can still overrule the President's declaration and the matter would be sent to Congress. You could argue the President could tell the Senate he's fit, fire the Cabinet, and then there's no Cabinet to overrule him but odds are if the Cabinet members who declared him unfit to begin with signed off again, anything the President did after notifying the Senate would be invalid. That's how I would expect the Courts to come down on the issue. Giving such an obvious out to a stark raving mad president would destroy the provision.

 

[striker42]

Sure. And I think the Congress' latitude as to what constitutes an impeachable crime is also fairly open-ended.

It is. They could theoretically impeach a President because he wore a tie they thought was ugly. But I'm basing my position on actual crimes.

 

[Snowman]

You could argue the President could tell the Senate he's fit, fire the Cabinet, and then there's no Cabinet to overrule him

That's exactly what I'm saying, and it's how I've seen multiple Conmstitutional lawyers (of which I am not one) characterize it over the last several years, both supporting and not supporting Trump. Their consensus is that it was only written for situatiuons in which a President was unconscious, unable to speak, brain damaged, a vegetable ,whatever, cannot communicate, and that it would never hold against a conscious POTUS.

 

[nsacpi]

It is. They could theoretically impeach a President because he wore a tie they thought was ugly. But I'm basing my position on actual crimes.

I just want to apply a little symmetry here. If the president is so addled that a case can be made that he should not be impeached because he actually believed something for which there is no evidence, then why not have members of congress also be similarly impaired (TDS is the technical medical term I believe) and kick him out for something for which there is also no evidence.

 

[striker42]

I just want to apply a little symmetry here. If the president is so addled that a case can be made that he should not be impeached because he actually believed something for which there is no evidence, then why not have members of congress also be similarly impaired (TDS is the technical medical term I believe) and kick him out for something for which there is also no evidence.

Believing that you're a little green man would be very strong evidence of unfitness. Believing something that has no evidence because it suits you or confirms a bias is human.

I'm not saying that Trump believing Biden was corrupt is proof Trump is slipping mentally. If Trump is slipping then that would contribute to him believing conspiracy theories, however, the same result could be explained by confirmation bias or simply being a wackadoodle who buys into conspiracy theories.

My concerns about Trump starting to slip are based on other things. I have no idea if these concerns are legitimate or not, they're just concerns at this point.

 

[Snowman]

Believing that you're a little green man would be very strong evidence of unfitness. Believing something that has no evidence because it suits you or confirms a bias is human.

I'm not saying that Trump believing Biden was corrupt is proof Trump is slipping mentally. If Trump is slipping then that would contribute to him believing conspiracy theories, however, the same result could be explained by confirmation bias or simply being a wackadoodle who buys into conspiracy theories.

My concerns about Trump starting to slip are based on other things. I have no idea if these concerns are legitimate or not, they're just concerns at this point.

I would imagine there are only two or three people here who don't harbor, at the least, concerns about the man's mental fitness at this point. We can mostly chalk this up as a nigh universal point of agreement.

 

[nsacpi]

Believing that you're a little green man would be very strong evidence of unfitness. Believing something that has no evidence because it suits you or confirms a bias is human.

I'm not saying that Trump believing Biden was corrupt is proof Trump is slipping mentally. If Trump is slipping then that would contribute to him believing conspiracy theories, however, the same result could be explained by confirmation bias or simply being a wackadoodle who buys into conspiracy theories.

My concerns about Trump starting to slip are based on other things. I have no idea if these concerns are legitimate or not, they're just concerns at this point.

ascertainment bias cuts both ways in this situation

 

[striker42]

That's exactly what I'm saying, and it's how I've seen multiple Conmstitutional lawyers (of which I am not one) characterize it over the last several years, both supporting and not supporting Trump. Their consensus is that it was only written for situatiuons in which a President was unconscious, unable to speak, brain damaged, a vegetable ,whatever, cannot communicate, and that it would never hold against a conscious POTUS.

What you're talking about is definitely something that has been debated about the 25th amendment. If it happened it would almost certainly end up in front of the SCOTUS almost immediately. my suspicion is that they would say the 25th amendment, by allowing the Cabinet a chance to respond to the President's declaration that he's fit would operate to invalidate the President's attempt to fire the Cabinet.

If the 25th Amendment was intended only for situations when the President was unconscious or unable to communicate, why have the mechanism for the cabinet to overrule him? In interpreting statutes or the Constitution, the courts are supposed to try to avoid rendering portions completely useless. Allowing the president to notify Congress he's fit and then immediately fire his cabinet would render the mechanism for letting Congress decide completely pointless. A president capable of communicating he's fit is a president capable of firing his cabinet.

I think the SCOTUS would say the signatures of the cabinet members at the time the President declared he was fit would be sufficient to send the matter to Congress to decide. However, this is academic as I don't see this happening.

 

[striker42]

I would imagine there are only two or three people here who don't harbor, at the least, concerns about the man's mental fitness at this point. We can mostly chalk this up as a nigh universal point of agreement.

Honestly, I think any President over the age of 65 should have to undergo regular tests regarding their mental state and have the results sent to the VP and cabinet. They require airline pilots to retire at 65, why not at least keep an eye on the President slipping mentally?