The Coronavirus, not the beer

chop2chip said:
Interesting that this outbreak was caused by European visitors. Glad to see research like this is being done.

But this is also besides the point. The vitriol against the CCP isn’t that they infected New York City specifically. It’s because they were bad actors from the beginning that attempted to cover up an outbreak by lying to the world and suppressing data.
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Yeah. China has been a bad actor. I think at a minimum they should pledge complete cooperation with an international commission tasked with investigating what happened.
 
sturg33 said:
The only medical system in the country that has been overwhelmed is NYC.

Other hospitals are closing down bc they cant afford to pay their staff as they have patients
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In this country I think New Orleans is coming close.

But overseas, Wuhan has been overwhelmed. Northern Italy. Large parts of Spain. Sweden looks like it could be headed for disaster. The UK is looking very bad.

And if the curve flattening concept prevents other places from being overwhelmed that's a good thing.
 
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nsacpi said:
In this country I think New Orleans is coming close.

But overseas, Wuhan has been overwhelmed. Northern Italy. Large parts of Spain. Sweden looks like it could be headed for disaster. The UK is looking very bad.
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The notion that European health care is superior to the US is laughable
 
nsacpi said:
I think it is something we should be demanding. Maybe it happens maybe it doesn't. But if they don't comply we have other responses.
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They have already showed their hand by lying. Do you think they really want the world to confirm this was released in a lab (probably by accident but who knows)?
 
sturg33 said:
The notion that European health care is superior to the US is laughable
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I wouldn't lump all of Europe together. I once was on a flight from Frankfurt to London. I asked the woman next to me what she was doing in Germany. She told me she worked and lived in London but the medical system in Germany was much better and that she went to see her doctor and dentist while there. I forget what her nationality was, but she was neither British nor German.

I would not want the British health care system. A friend of mine had a heart attack while working in London. His experience with British health care was not a good one.

But I think we can learn from Germany, France, Switzerland, FINLAND and some of the others.
 
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thethe said:
Yup - NYC was crushed like no region around the world and they handled it 'well'.
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Prior to this I expected the results for New York to be fairly good on a comparative basis. It has some of the best hospitals in the world, and overall it is a strong system.
 
thethe said:
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This is actually what is going on. Spectacular work.
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The Imperial College report did have worst case scenarios in this country that showed deaths in the millions if nothing was done. I think it is a good practice to have that kind of worst case scenario laid out. It doesn't mean they believe it is likely to happen. When someone comes along and presents it as such, I have to conclude they are either not familiar with the report or acting in bad faith.
 
nsacpi said:
The Imperial College report did have worst case scenarios in this country that showed deaths in the millions if nothing was done. I think it is a good practice to have that kind of worst case scenario laid out. It doesn't mean they believe it is likely to happen. When someone comes along and presents it as such, I have to conclude they are either not familiar with the report or acting in bad faith.
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I think the question is would the American people have been willing to accept 3 months plus of job losses, self imprisonment, closed schools, cancelled vacations, etc, if they weren't scared to oblivion from these models?

What the social outcomes from this? I can guarantee we will have civil liberty restricting new laws. The debt were taking on is unfathomable. The federal reserve intervention is on a scale even I couldnt have imagined. You think we had wealth I equality before...
 
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The attack on the first amendment marches forward

Being done during a pandemic too
 
nsacpi said:
The Imperial College report did have worst case scenarios in this country that showed deaths in the millions if nothing was done. I think it is a good practice to have that kind of worst case scenario laid out. It doesn't mean they believe it is likely to happen. When someone comes along and presents it as such, I have to conclude they are either not familiar with the report or acting in bad faith.
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If most of these models were off by a factor of 4 and the expected deaths with nothing being done was 1.5M then I think the question is should we have sacrificed what we did for 375K people dying? Absolutely

But, then the mitigation measures should have been much different such as stay at homes for vulnerable segments of the population.

Its clear we could have navigated this much better with a smarter approach and yet we still are keeping the country shut down for no reason.
 
sturg33 said:
I think the question is would the American people have been willing to accept 3 months plus of job losses, self imprisonment, closed schools, cancelled vacations, etc, if they weren't scared to oblivion from these models?

What the social outcomes from this? I can guarantee we will have civil liberty restricting new laws. The debt were taking on is unfathomable. The federal reserve intervention is on a scale even I couldnt have imagined. You think we had wealth I equality before...
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Who was scared by these models? Very few have read them. I believe Birx and Fauci sat down with chosen one and presented him with the models.

But having said that, I think even if government had not acted large parts of the economy would have shut down. Sports leagues took actions on their own without government prompting. Going out to the restaurant is something many people would have stopped doing even without any government guidance. Either way the economic damage would be enormous. With and without government guidance. I think it might have been even worse and more chaotic without government guidance. If people are dying in large numbers and government does nothing, I think there is a potential cost in terms of public confidence and social cohesion that can become very large in economic terms.

So I don't see this as one of "accepting" these costs. No one speaks in terms of "accepting" the costs of an earthquake or tsunami. It is something that is there, and we have to manage it.

Civil liberties are not an absolute. Throughout history people have weighed them against other desirable things. And in times of war or plague, people do give some of them up.
 
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thethe said:
If most of these models were off by a factor of 4 and the expected deaths with nothing being done was 1.5M then I think the question is should we have sacrificed what we did for 375K people dying? Absolutely

But, then the mitigation measures should have been much different such as stay at homes for vulnerable segments of the population.

Its clear we could have navigated this much better with a smarter approach and yet we still are keeping the country shut down for no reason.
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A case can be made for doing a lot of things differently. But I don't think we are still keeping the country shut down for no reason. There are benefits and costs to doing it that have to be weighed. There are some very specific pieces of information that I think need to be taken into account. What has happened to R naught the past two or three weeks. That's a key variable for determining when to ease up on some of these restrictions.
 
interesting conclusion from that article

I mean dumb as ****

But interesting
 
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