Republican voter suppression...

[nsacpi]

Yeah see the reason we are talking in circles is because you have this weird delusion that I support preventing anyone from casting their votes.

I don't think we are talking in circles. You have come out in favor of measures that reduce the participation of voters who vote the wrong way. People you have variously described as "idiots," "low information voters," "commies," and "tyrants."

 

[sturg33]

I don't think we are talking in circles. You have come out in favor of measures that reduce the participation of voters who vote the wrong way. People you have variously described as "idiots," "low information voters," "commies," and "tyrants."

I don't support removing those idiots, commies, low info voters, and tyrants right to vote, though

 

[nsacpi]

I confirm that I'm for idiot suppression

bump

 

[Julio3000]

Look, I don’t think that Trump was the worst President of my lifetime. His presidency may have done a lot to undermine American legitimacy and leadership in the world but—to me—Trump was more a symptom than the disease. I’m on record in these forums saying that I thought the GWB presidency was worse than Trump. And I think Reagan was worse, too. And, honestly, I don’t think Clinton or Obama were that great.

But, to repeat, you’re deploying an argument that it’s good to support a limited franchise to avoid Hitler. But *you support a limited franchise, in general* Now, and I guess in every election. So it’s like the old joke—you meet an asshole one day, you met an asshole. You meet an asshole every day, maybe you’re the asshole.

Maybe you’re the fascist?

 

[Julio3000]

I don't support removing those idiots, commies, low info voters, and tyrants right to vote, though

You just want to make it harder for them to vote.

 

[nsacpi]

My position is putting a basic easy-to-clear hurdle will clear a lot of low information voters from the calculus.



The dems want more and more low information voters. They are easier to control. They are easy to gain power from.

bump (especially for the unintended irony)

 

[Julio3000]

Something like a literacy test, maybe.

 

[Julio3000]

Yeah see the reason we are talking in circles is because you have this weird delusion that I support preventing anyone from casting their votes.

I don't.

I fully support any legal citizen's ability to vote

But you don’t.

 

[sturg33]

Look, I don’t think that Trump was the worst President of my lifetime. His presidency may have done a lot to undermine American legitimacy and leadership in the world but—to me—Trump was more a symptom than the disease. I’m on record in these forums saying that I thought the GWB presidency was worse than Trump. And I think Reagan was worse, too. And, honestly, I don’t think Clinton or Obama were that great.

But, to repeat, you’re deploying an argument that it’s good to support a limited franchise to avoid Hitler. But *you support a limited franchise, in general* Now, and I guess in every election. So it’s like the old joke—you meet an asshole one day, you met an asshole. You meet an asshole every day, maybe you’re the asshole.

Maybe you’re the fascist?

If supporting and defending every individual's rights against the majority makes me a fascist, then you are free to call me a fascist.

(Try to avoid responding to this by saying I support removing peoples right to vote... bc I dont)

 

[nsacpi]

If supporting and defending every individual's rights against the majority makes me a fascist, then you are free to call me a fascist.

(Try to avoid responding to this by saying I support removing peoples right to vote... bc I dont)

you have a position that puts participatory democracy below getting the "right" outcome

and to boot you blame that on the fact that people who disagree with your way of seeing things are idiots, low information voters, commies and tyrants

the closest analog I can think of is Marx favoring a dictatorship because workers suffer from "false consciousness" and can't figure out what's best for themselves

 

[Julio3000]

Well, have no fear. The (political) minority’s rights are well protected by the extremely un-democratic US Senate.

I’m just surprised that your concern for individual rights against the minority hasn’t surfaced until now. Seems like there’s other places it could have been deployed.

So which national election in your lifetime has been worth sacrificing democracy because the result was Hitlerian?

 

[sturg33]

you have a position that puts participatory democracy below getting the "right" outcome

and to boot you blame that on the fact that people who disagree with your way of seeing things are idiots, low information voters, commies and tyrants

the closest analog I can think of is Marx favoring a dictatorship because workers suffer from "false consciousness" and can't figure out what's best for themselves

Yeah I prefer not allowing people like Hitler rising to power... or people voting in favor of slavery... or people voting in favor of not allowing women to vote.

I imagine a lot of jews, black people, and women of those times agree with me.

Outcomes are important

People rights are important.

Your suggestion that those outcomes were less consequential than less participatory democracy is really ****ing stupid.

The outcome of the GA senate races was celebrated by you bc of a less participatory democracy. I dont blame you. Bc of that less participation, your team now gets to legislate peoples rights away more.

There are too many people who want to legislate peoples rights away. I dont want those people to vote bc they are dangerous.

What I want and what people are free to do are two different things.

 

[sturg33]

Well, have no fear. The (political) minority’s rights are well protected by the extremely un-democratic US Senate.

I’m just surprised that your concern for individual rights against the minority hasn’t surfaced until now. Seems like there’s other places it could have been deployed.

So which national election in your lifetime has been worth sacrificing democracy because the result was Hitlerian?

I'm reliably assured by people on these boards that Trump was a fascist and installed a military kuh to overtake our democracy that just barely failed.

I'm reliably informed democratically elected RON DeSantis is personally responsible for the deaths of millions of Florida citizens

 

[nsacpi]

Yeah I prefer not allowing people like Hitler rising to power...

I think that's exactly the problem. Once you come to believe that you have the wisdom to save the rest of us from "Hitler" then suppressing participatory democracy becomes all too easy. You'll have to forgive the rest of us if we're not interested in having you save us from "Hitler." We can manage fine without your help.

 

[sturg33]

I think that's exactly the problem. Once you come to believe that you have the wisdom to save the rest of us from "Hitler" then suppressing democracy becomes all too easy. You'll have to forgive the rest of us if we're not interested in having you save us from "Hitler." We can manage fine without your help.

You keep conflating my desire for less idiots voting with restricting the right to vote.

I know it must be intentional at this point

 

[Julio3000]

Yeah I prefer not allowing people like Hitler rising to power... or people voting in favor of slavery... or people voting in favor of not allowing women to vote.

I imagine a lot of jews, black people, and women of those times agree with me.

Outcomes are important

People rights are important.

Your suggestion that those outcomes were less consequential than less participatory democracy is really ****ing stupid.

The outcome of the GA senate races was celebrated by you bc of a less participatory democracy. I dont blame you. Bc of that less participation, your team now gets to legislate peoples rights away more.

There are too many people who want to legislate peoples rights away. I dont want those people to vote bc they are dangerous.

What I want and what people are free to do are two different things.

And, again, in GA you’re conflating lack of motivation with lack of means. I accept the Ls from lack of motivation. I do t want *anyone* to suffer from lack of means.

Look, you’ve already said it enough times that you’re clowning yourself. Saying you’d rather the “wrong” people not vote is one thing, saying you support measures to prevent it from happening is another. You’re saying you support the former, yet you’ve consistently advocated for the latter.

 

[sturg33]

And, again, in GA you’re conflating lack of motivation with lack of means. I accept the Ls from lack of motivation. I do t want *anyone* to suffer from lack of means.

Look, you’ve already said it enough times that you’re clowning yourself. Saying you’d rather the “wrong” people not vote is one thing, saying you support measures to prevent it from happening is another. You’re saying you support the former, yet you’ve consistently advocated for the latter.

I think you are very likely imaging an exaggerated idea of what I mean by making it harder.

What id advocate for is requiring a voter ID and voting in person... give as much time as necessary to make that happen

But yall think that is voter suppression.

Literally any hurdle is voter suppression. Registering to vote is a hurdle. Requesting a ball is a hurdle. Have to buy a stamp or drive to a mail drop box is a hurdle.

 

[nsacpi]

You keep conflating my desire for less idiots voting with restricting the right to vote.

I know it must be intentional at this point

I was just responding with a polite no thank you to your offer to save us from Hitler.

 

[sturg33]

Do yall actually think someone going to the ballot box, voting down the line based on nothing but a letter, is an objectively good thing?

This slices both ways. The low informed voters also got us catastrophes like Iraq war and NCLB. It got us fascist Trump and corpse Biden. It doesn't lead to good candidates with good proposal bc the votes come down to nothing but party lines

Voting on nothing but a letter or a slogan is not something to strive for, in my opinion

 

[Julio3000]

I’m willing to admit that straight, 100% voter participation would probably create, in a snapshot, some outcomes that I wouldn’t prefer. That said, I think it would be a better outcome in the long run, considering the class and demographic biases in our “democracy.” To suggest that you support less participation puts you on one side of the line. I’m loath to define what it is, but...some words come to mind.

I guess I’m willing to risk the so-called tyranny of the majority to be on the other side of that line.