The Coronavirus, not the beer

thethe said:
There is absolutely no reason to take a treatment for something that you have a 99.9% survival rate from.

Yes, the ones that do have irrational fears.

The at risk have taken the vaccine correctly and now are protected.
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This is false. First, not every at risk person can take the vaccine. The underlying health conditions that prevent them from taking the vaccine are also conditions that put them at very high risk to die from Covid.

But ignoring that percentage of people, you have roughly 10% of people who get the vaccine that it wont be effective for. That's the case with any vaccine. But with many illness this is okay because of herd immunity. Vaccines are administered at a high enough rate to deny the disease a population to spread in. This means those that the vaccine is ineffective for are not exposed to the disease and so don't contract it.

If, as you suggest, every healthy person under 40 refuses to take the vaccine, you'll never get to herd immunity as there will be a sufficiently large population in which Covid can circulate. This means that the 10% of at risk people who the vaccine didn't work for will still be at risk of being exposed to Covid.

So what you're arguing is that we, as healthy younger people, should be so afraid of the absolutely TINY risks associated with the vaccine that we expose a large number of elderly and at risk people to Covid so that we don't have to take that minuscule risk?

If you want to talk about irrational fear, fear of the vaccine is an irrational fear. I'll gladly take those risks so that the 1 in 10 elderly people I know who the vaccine is ineffective for will get the protection of herd immunity.
 
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striker42 said:
This is false. First, not every at risk person can take the vaccine. The underlying health conditions that prevent them from taking the vaccine are also conditions that put them at very high risk to die from Covid.

But ignoring that percentage of people, you have roughly 10% of people who get the vaccine that it wont be effective for. That's the case with any vaccine. But with many illness this is okay because of herd immunity. Vaccines are administered at a high enough rate to deny the disease a population to spread in. This means those that the vaccine is ineffective for are not exposed to the disease and so don't contract it.

If, as you suggest, every healthy person under 40 refuses to take the vaccine, you'll never get to herd immunity as there will be a sufficiently large population in which Covid can circulate. This means that the 10% of at risk people who the vaccine didn't work for will still be at risk of being exposed to Covid.

So what you're arguing is that we, as healthy younger people, should be so afraid of the absolutely TINY risks associated with the vaccine that we expose a large number of elderly and at risk people to Covid so that we don't have to take that minuscule risk?

If you want to talk about irrational fear, fear of the vaccine is an irrational fear. I'll gladly take those risks so that the 1 in 10 elderly people I know who the vaccine is ineffective for will get the protection of herd immunity.
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So you’re just going to exclude prior infection like big pharma is pushing huh?

I have no fears as I’ve taken vaccines in my life. I believe my body is strong and was INTENDED to fight off illness naturally.

The amount of at risk that can’t take the virus or available effective therapeutics is so small it’s unfortunate you are going down that route.

So instead of the incredibly small percentage of the population that could take extra precaution in their lives we are now shaming people who don’t want unapproved experimental treatments in their body despite them being at virtually no risk for the virus.
 
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Guess what. If you don’t include prior infection then you support vaccination of school age children.
 
Big pharma conspired to suppress available therapeutics but sure go take their unappprved vaccine for something you’ll survive from at a greater rate than 99.9%.
 
I just don't understand how people have not noticed the drastic overstep in the everyday decisions of the individual.

When the pandemic started there were accurate mathematical models about what mitigation could do at just 20 / 40 / 60 % levels and the results were incredible because thats what the math bears out. We are now pushing to get to >95% levels of risk mitigation and it won't stop.
 
thethe said:
So you’re just going to exclude prior infection like big pharma is pushing huh?

I have no fears as I’ve taken vaccines in my life. I believe my body is strong and was INTENDED to fight off illness naturally.

The amount of at risk that can’t take the virus or available effective therapeutics is so small it’s unfortunate you are going down that route.

So instead of the incredibly small percentage of the population that could take extra precaution in their lives we are now shaming people who don’t want unapproved experimental treatments in their body despite them being at virtually no risk for the virus.
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You were shaming those who are healthy and getting the vaccine as being "scared." I'm just pointing out that your position is one driven by fear. You keep calling the vaccine an "unapproved experimental treatment." You consider the vaccine as something potentially dangerous to you. This means your position of not getting the vaccine is motivated by fear of the vaccine. You might not want to put it that way, but it's the necessary implication of your position.

I'm simply saying that there is motivation to get the vaccine that is not one motivated by fear of personal harm. Getting the vaccine provides greater protection to the populations truly at risk. I'll gladly get the vaccine if it means my grandmother can have visitors in her assisted living facility without risk. I'll gladly get it if my immunocompromised friend is at less risk because of it. I'll even get it just to protect the random person at the store who might have otherwise picked up Covid from me.

While many are getting the vaccine out of fear, many are getting it because it will be good for society as a whole. Those not getting it are refusing based out of fear for their personal safety.
 
striker42 said:
You were shaming those who are healthy and getting the vaccine as being "scared." I'm just pointing out that your position is one driven by fear. You keep calling the vaccine an "unapproved experimental treatment." You consider the vaccine as something potentially dangerous to you. This means your position of not getting the vaccine is motivated by fear of the vaccine. You might not want to put it that way, but it's the necessary implication of your position.

I'm simply saying that there is motivation to get the vaccine that is not one motivated by fear of personal harm. Getting the vaccine provides greater protection to the populations truly at risk. I'll gladly get the vaccine if it means my grandmother can have visitors in her assisted living facility without risk. I'll gladly get it if my immunocompromised friend is at less risk because of it. I'll even get it just to protect the random person at the store who might have otherwise picked up Covid from me.

While many are getting the vaccine out of fear, many are getting it because it will be good for society as a whole. Those not getting it are refusing based out of fear for their personal safety.
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The whole message is deceitful because there is no discussion about prior immunity. Educate the population - Get the real herd immunity statistics and then see what is needed.

You are pushing a message that is going to lead to forced vaccinations of school aged children. Don't try and pretend that is not going to happen.
 
I'm gonna speculate wildly and say that when the vaccine has the full approval of the FDA that anti-vaxxers like thethe will come up with some other weird rationalization for not getting it.

Btw I support their freedom of choice, their freedom to express their beliefs, deza and rationalizations, etc, etc.
 
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nsacpi said:
I'm gonna speculate wildly and say that when the vaccine has the full approval of the FDA that anti-vaxxers like thethe will come up with some other weird rationalization for getting it.
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I personally setup my fathers vaccine appointment.
 
thethe said:
I personally setup my fathers vaccine appointment.
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cool

and if you ride a motorcycle i hope you wear the helmet even though there is a 99.99999% chance you will survive without any harm your next ride without one (I'm assuming for illustrative purposes that you know how to ride one)
 
nsacpi said:
cool

and if you ride a motorcycle i hope you wear the helmet even though there is a 99.99999% chance you will survive without any harm your next ride without one (I'm assuming for illustrative purposes that you know how to ride one)
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Wouldn't take the unnecessary risk.
 
nsacpi said:
I'm gonna speculate wildly and say that when the vaccine has the full approval of the FDA that anti-vaxxers like thethe will come up with some other weird rationalization for not getting it.

Btw I support their freedom of choice, their freedom to express their beliefs, deza and rationalizations, etc, etc.
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Probably, but I do think it’s a pretty good argument.
 
acesfull86 said:
Probably, but I do think it’s a pretty good argument.
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I'm just curious. Is your point that the FDA should speed up it's process for giving full approval to the vaccines. And if so, speed it up generally or speed it up for the covid vaccines in particular.

It occurs me that if the latter happens, the anti-vaxxers could argue that the FDA is cutting corners, etc, etc. But then another question comes up: should we care what the anti-vaxxers are saying and adjust policy based on that. It seems this requires an assumption that their objections are in good faith and they would come around if those objections are addressed.
 
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