Deester11
Well-known member
Their development or the better versions of their NOW, occurred at the major league level. Could whatever worked for them be applied to Pache /Waters?
SUNDAY MINORS FINAL 8/1/21: Wright's Best Game Ever?
- Thread starter rico43
- Start date
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
I think they easily could improve. Every player learns at the major league level to some extent, but I guess I just get frustrated watching guys basically "skip a grade" and then get tossed in there. I'm not giving up on either of these guys.
One advantage the Braves had during their great run (and they've had a bit of it recently) is that the performance of their top-drawer players gave them the margin-of-error where they could let a younger player learn on the job. I sincerely believe that's what they felt this year with Pache. But with a'Arnaud going down and Ozuna underperforming and then going down (and then some), that margin evaporated and Pache stuck out like a sore thumb when they needed a measure of performance that they didn't think they would need when the season started.
Pache posted an OPS of .358, yes, .358, across 182 PAs. No team, no matter how good the stars were, would allow that player to stay on the team. No team would let them learn on the job, and most teams wouldn't even give the guy 182 PAs.
Pache wasn't bad...he was the worst player in MLB for almost 2 months. Nobody saw that coming, and blaming it on "learning on the job" or "skipping a grade" or "being rushed" is not accurate or fair in any way. It was a crash and burn unlike anything that usually happens with professional baseball players. I personally can't remember a 180 PA stretch that bad for any player I've ever watched. It was literally like how a reasonably fit guy out of the stands with some high school ball under his belt would perform.
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msstate7
Well-known member
And he's followed that with a .700 ops and over 30% k rate at AAA. I'm worried
Deester11
Well-known member
Eh. They'd get pennies on the dollar for him. It is what it is though.
Hudson2
Well-known member
Everybody knows he has elite defense but if he can hit for the rest of the season then they’ll get more then that.
I am too. However, like what we've seen with Riley these guys can seemingly change overnight. I still have hope for Wright as well.
Deester11
Well-known member
I still think he's going to hit. I could be wrong and I don't mind professing that, but the version we saw was excruciating to watch. I'm also not a Waters guy to the extent some are, but he can play center also. I'd rather one play cf in Atlanta so it'll be interesting to see what happens in the offseason.
I hope for Pache's sake he reports in the best shape of his life....
Southcack77
Well-known member
I have never really thought Pache was going to hit much. Figured his best case was the CF version of Anfdrelton.
His defense at the major league level left a bit to be desired.
Riley didn't really change overnight. Its a recurring pattern with him since he started professional ball. Improvement IMprovement Improvement.
We never saw that from Pache and his lackluster 'hit' tool is why I've always thought Waters was the far superior prospect.
Deester11
Well-known member
Far superior? That's a stretch. The recency bias is real and warranted but hyperbole regarding the two is....interesting.
Its not a recency bias as I've been driving the Waters train for quite some time. If you can't hit at all you can't play in the majors. I think with his speed Waters will be a plus defender but just not elite like Pache would have been if he merited playing time at all.
Deester11
Well-known member
The SO/contact issues have been real with Waters. I think he's a better hitter, but as the driver of the Waters train surely you've seen the train jump the tracks a few times. If you think Riley had streaks of non-contact, wait until you witness one of Waters. And I'm saying that as a decent fan of his.
Up until this year and his cup of coffee in AAA in 2019 (as a 20 year old) he had similar K numbers to Riley.
You can either make contact with authority or not.
Waters can do that consistently (w/holes). Pache can't.
Deester11
Well-known member
Far superior is still a stretch. But you can hold on to that. Cool. But striking out every 3rd plate appearance doesn't scream 'hit' tool when you get to the majors. I can hear Chip now....Nevermind.
As a 21 year old Riley struck out slightly more than 29% of the time in AAA.
Talent shows itself over time and almost all scouting reports discuss how Waters makes some of the best contact in the minor leagues.
Deester11
Well-known member
I've watched both since rookie ball. If you're just using scouting reports to make a point...then you'll miss the real trajectory of a player. I've given Waters props for his improvement to date, but 'loud' contact is not a barometer for what makes a prospect good. He's always made loud contact...WHEN he's made contact. 37% SO is disastrous no?
I'm stuck on far superior and those same scouting reports have always put Pache ahead. Even a failed mlb stint has Pache ahead of mid season rankings. I really don't care about those as much as I do when I see them play. I used to put their reports here but Meh, I'll let others draw their conclusions. Pache may never hit. I am less enthused about him reaching decent Ender level and still....I'm as high on him as i am Waters. Which doesn't mean anything I guess.
I don't get where the 37% comes in. He is probably closer to 33.5% for his full AAA stint. And as has been documented here by another poster (can't remember their name) Waters started hot, got hurt (look at those June numbers) and is now hitting the ball again. Lets see where he ends up by seasons end since there is no chance he takes AB's at the major league level.