The Coronavirus, not the beer

You said the people of Australia can vote their current leaders out if they don't like their new hellhole.

Why would you not think the same here?

What I think with respect to Australia is the same as what I think here.

With covid, each jurisidiction gets to make some tough decisions. Some will be wiser than others. And we can all choose to elect a new set of tyrants the next elections. That's how things have worked (here and Australia) for a long time now.

But you see some sort of existential threat. So I'm looking forward to seeing you man the barricades with your Glocks and whatnots.
 
Sounds like a bunch of excuses you've made to feel good about imposing your will on people's rights.

A tyrant, racist, and anti-vaxxer all in one user name

I try to be reasonable about it. If someone doesn't brush their teeth and has halitosis and breathes on me, it's not nice and it is an externality. But I'm not going to go about seeking a mandate for them to brush their teeth. An infectious disease like covid is a different matter. Your mileage may vary. If you think there is an existential threat to your rights, go ahead and do whatever it is you think you have to do.
 
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They have given emergency authorization and these vaccines have been taken by hundreds of millions around the world. They are safe. But I look forward to you and others coming up with something new when the FDA gives the Pfizer vaccine full official approval in September, as they have indicated they will.

I hope they do.

It just seems to me that if we’re going to have this federal agency called the Food and Drug Administration and task it with approving medical interventions based on their safety and efficacy, the order of operations should be that the agency gives its full approval to a medical intervention before we mandate the public receive it as a prerequisite to participate in society.

I don’t think that is unreasonable.

If it is, then I question why we have this agency in the first place.
 
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I hope they do.

It just seems to me that if we’re going to have this federal agency called the Food and Drug Administration and task it with approving medical interventions based on their safety and efficacy, the order of operations should be that the agency gives its full approval to a medical intervention before we mandate the public receive it as a prerequisite to participate in society.

I don’t think that is unreasonable.

If it is, then I question why we have this agency in the first place.

The FDA has shown how unnecessary they are these days.

There is a 0% chance they don't approve the vaccine, even if it didn't meet their criteria. Can you imagine the ****show that would occur if they didn't approve after 200 million Americans were coerced into taking it?

My guess is they are taking as long as they are so they can claim they did the most thorough analysis in its history so we can all feel warm and fuzzy about the safety. But again, even if the vaccine made us a grow a second head, they will approve
 
Imagine living in a place that mandates your kids wear something useless 24/7 bc you live in a city of scared little bitches.

You have some of the highest taxes in the country to get that!

Oh, and you also have the highest covid death rate to get that!

shlthole

[tw]1423629939668967438[/tw]
 
I hope they do.

It just seems to me that if we’re going to have this federal agency called the Food and Drug Administration and task it with approving medical interventions based on their safety and efficacy, the order of operations should be that the agency gives its full approval to a medical intervention before we mandate the public receive it as a prerequisite to participate in society.

I don’t think that is unreasonable.

If it is, then I question why we have this agency in the first place.

You'd be surprised how controversial that proposition is. There is a long list of sick people and their families clamoring for provisional approval of experimental drugs the FDA is not convinced are effective. Of course the covid vaccines are known to be effective, but the normal procedures require collecting data over a period of time before ruling on safety. In this case, I think a shortened timeline is warranted given the hundreds of millions of people who have received the vaccine. For a rare disease, you need a long time to accumulate data.
 
Anyone hearing that the vaccine disables the GPS of sperm. Apparently Sammy Sperm is having trouble finding Edna Egg.
 
Imagine living in a place that mandates your kids wear something useless 24/7 bc you live in a city of scared little bitches.

You have some of the highest taxes in the country to get that!

Oh, and you also have the highest covid death rate to get that!

shlthole

[tw]1423629939668967438[/tw]

My 2 cents is that school districts and colleges should mandate the vaccine (for the age groups for which it is approved). At this point masks are a secondary intervention. Kind of like using a squirt gun when you have a bazooka. My guess is a vaccine mandate would also trigger you. But who knows.
 
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My 2 cents is that [authority] should mandate...

This is your 0.02 on everything

I remember back in the day you used to be a data guy. Now you are an agenda guy. another 57 who happens to get even more things wrong

Now you call for mandating children to wears masks that have no benefit or be injected with a vaccine that is completely unnecessary to their risk profile
 
This is your 0.02 on everything

I remember back in the day you used to be a data guy. Now you are an agenda guy. another 57 who happens to get even more things wrong

Now you call for mandating children to wears masks that have no benefit or be injected with a vaccine that is completely unnecessary to their risk profile

The reason I favor incentivizing vaccination in low-risk populations has to do with externalities and things like herd immunity. See post 19601. Something made me think you would not look favorably on schools having a vaccine mandate.
 
well you toggle back and forth between mandating and incentivizing

you're the "it's voluntary unless you choose not to" guy

but why should someone with natural immunity get the vaccine?
 
well you toggle back and forth between mandating and incentivizing

you're the "it's voluntary unless you choose not to" guy

but why should someone with natural immunity get the vaccine?

A school mandate is a form of incentivization. Same as requirement for a vaccine to fly commercial. Those will give people more incentives to get their shots. But my preferred method, as I've noted repeatedly, is cold hard cash. Give people who get vaccinated a thousand bucks. I'm sure that will have a significant effect on vaccination rates and get us to herd immunity.
 
You'd be surprised how controversial that proposition is. There is a long list of sick people and their families clamoring for provisional approval of experimental drugs the FDA is not convinced are effective. Of course the covid vaccines are known to be effective, but the normal procedures require collecting data over a period of time before ruling on safety. In this case, I think a shortened timeline is warranted given the hundreds of millions of people who have received the vaccine. For a rare disease, you need a long time to accumulate data.

To me, it’s a way more interesting conversation than the 105th debate on mask efficacy, but no one seems all that interested in having it. (And by no one, I’m talking about the media/society in general, not this message board).

This is arguably the most visible, widespread medical emergency of most of our lifetimes…if the FDA process is too slow and burdensome here, and if the agency’s only wins were the places where they suspended their usual operating procedures, it’s scary to think of its daily impact on people who are suffering from diseases not on the news 24/7.

Post COVID, we should be having a national debate about the costs and benefits of the agency and it’s standards. Yes, it’s (probably) protecting from horrible side effects from new drugs in some cases, but how about the cost side of the ledger? How many people are suffering because we’re not allowing them access to something that might help them? How many drugs are never developed because the torturous FDA process works as a disincentive to development?

Do we need a process that tests for safety, then efficacy, then safety + efficacy together? Can we skip right to stage 3? Should we test for efficacy at all, risk that people will be sold the occasional magic pill that does nothing, but benefit from those who get an effective medicine before it’s too late? Should we allow people to use interventions that were approved by other highly developed Western countries rather than wait for the FDA to sort through paperwork?

There are a lot of tough moral questions to answer, but ignoring them doesn’t make them go away…all we’ve done is saddle a government agency with the burden of answering them. It’s not surprising that they err on the side of risk aversion, but at some point I hope people will at least question whether this is the right thing to do.
 
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To me, it’s a way more interesting conversation than the 105th debate on mask efficacy, but no one seems all that interested in having it. (And by no one, I’m talking about the media/society in general, not this message board).

This is arguably the most visible, widespread medical emergency of most of our lifetimes…if the FDA process is too slow and burdensome here, and if the agency’s only wins were the places where they suspended their usual operating procedures, it’s scary to think of its daily impact on people who are suffering from diseases not on the news 24/7.

Post COVID, we should be having a national debate about the costs and benefits of the agency and it’s standards. Yes, it’s (probably) protecting from horrible side effects from new drugs in some cases, but how about the cost side of the ledger? How many people are suffering because we’re not allowing them access to something that might help them? How many drugs are never developed because the torturous FDA process works as a disincentive to development?

Do we need a process that tests for safety, then efficacy, then safety + efficacy together? Can we skip right to stage 3? Should we test for efficacy at all, risk that people will be sold the occasional magic pill that does nothing, but benefit from those who get an effective medicine before it’s too late? Should we allow people to use interventions that were approved by other highly developed Western countries rather than wait for the FDA to sort through paperwork?

There are a lot of tough moral questions to answer, but ignoring them doesn’t make them go away…all we’ve done is saddle a government agency with the burden of answering them. It’s not surprising that they err on the side of risk aversion, but at some point I hope people will at least question whether this is the right thing to do.

I'm all for doing this on a rational cost-benefit basis.

There are two types of mistakes: approving something that is dangerous and will cause harm, and not approving or too slowly approving something that can benefit people. You have to accept you are going to make some of both mistakes. But you want to optimize your procedures so that the net benefit is maximized. It's a complicated analysis to do, but I'd be surprised if the FDA has not already done something like this.

I think the hard part is quantifying things like effects on future vaccine hesitancy if you make too much of the first mistake. But I'm pretty sure the bar should not be set at zero. If you do that you rule out too many treatments that work.

Also I'm not sure how much FDA procedures are controlled by statute and how much is at their own discretion. With covid they do seem to have exercised some discretion. Initially they were saying full approval would come early next year. Now it is September. Btw the college my son will be attending this fall just announced the vaccine will be required as soon as the FDA gives full approval. So it does matter.
 
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A school mandate is a form of incentivization. Same as requirement for a vaccine to fly commercial. Those will give people more incentives to get their shots. But my preferred method, as I've noted repeatedly, is cold hard cash. Give people who get vaccinated a thousand bucks. I'm sure that will have a significant effect on vaccination rates and get us to herd immunity.

Maybe we can cut off all welfare to poor people who aren't getting it.

And can deny any medical care to people who don't have it.

And let's allow apartments to not allow residents without it.

Certainly allow jobs to fire people who don't have it.

It's not mandating or coercion... It's incentives!

You are one of the good guys
 
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